Good Intimate, Singer Songwriter Type Orchestral Bundles?

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
DSmolken
KVRian
1385 posts since 20 Sep, 2013 from Poland

Post Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:05 am

brainzistor wrote:You are completely misguided by their presentation. Basically every single library out there has close mic, dry sound, dry as powder.
The whole point is that nobody out there is gonna present you for example cello with absolutely dry, dumb, sound.
Well, a few of us have - VSL, SWAM, Spitfire (the cello in ASS), even me and Bigcat have released celli with only a close dry mic. But you're somewhat right - close mics will often work, and most orchestral libraries have them.

But another reason why big orchestral stuff isn't right for pop is not just being recorded in a concert hall, but also section size. Classic pop stuff, whether Motown or Nick Drake, would usually have a few string players, often overdubbed, and even bigger-budget stuff would usually have less than 20 players. Sections of 3-6 violins and violas, maybe 2-4 celli... I find that kind of thing very helpful in getting a pop sound, or even for metal. With brass and woodwinds it's not a big deal because solo instruments will generally be all you need, unless you're doing Latin or big band and need multiple trumpets etc.

There's also technique - symphonic and Hollywood stuff will often have a big lush vibrato which often isn't what you want, and also muted strings. With horns, you'll probably want falls and trumpet shakes and other articulations which aren't really used in classical music.

So the problem with the nice orchestral libraries isn't so much that they won't work for pop, but that if you're not gonna get much use out of the big sections or distant mics, so you're paying for a whole lot of samples but won't use most of them. So, getting stuff that's more pop-appropriate (poproppriate?) will mean more bang for the buck, and also more bang for each GB of diskspace.

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jancivil
KVRAF
15821 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Good Intimate, Singer Songwriter Type Orchestral Bundles?

Post Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:26 am

DSmolken wrote:
jancivil wrote:Place the two things - strictly from dry - in the same virtual room.
Yeah. Dry samples placed in the same studio room will do. Also, while acoustic guitar and bassoon might be recorded in the same room, everything on classic records often was not, once multitracking became common. Strings might be recorded in a larger room just to fit in all the players, drums in another room, vocals in a booth... So having some things recorded in other spaces is perfectly normal and acceptable.
Very true. It depends what you want, and it may get seriously specific. Personally I consider for instance drums as a separate entity albeit integrated by strategies.

If the guitar and bassoon are to be interacting and their parts written, or their improvisation is performed with the intent of being responsive (nb: the word 'intimate') one to the other, acoustically you want the same reflective space (which can be tightly controlled, itself).

I would prefer to be using MIR Pro (multiple impulse responses) but it's too expensive (both in terms of its price and the amount of machine it requires) for me, so I use Hybrid Reverb. Where, let's say a single space for solo instruments may be given a reflective tightness where the panning of the instruments sent to it is pronounced by the non-diffuse (closer to 0%) setting. While I could have another instance of that room with higher diffusion where that is appropriate. And this is all automatable.
Last edited by jancivil on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jancivil
KVRAF
15821 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Good Intimate, Singer Songwriter Type Orchestral Bundles?

Post Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:29 am

Bug Music wrote:/string quartet
One solo instrument at a time, layered one on top of another like the real thing, reverb to taste (and very time consuming).
Yes. This is how I always work, except with strings ensembles which is a different can of worms to open up here.

DSmolken
KVRian
1385 posts since 20 Sep, 2013 from Poland

Re: Good Intimate, Singer Songwriter Type Orchestral Bundles?

Post Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:29 am

Yeah, I'd say that string ensembles are possibly the hardest thing to find the right samples for, when it comes to instruments commonly used in this kind of music. Though maybe as a string player myself, I'm just too picky and opinionated.

zzz00m
KVRian
1340 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Re: Good Intimate, Singer Songwriter Type Orchestral Bundles?

Post Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:07 am

bigcat1969 wrote:You might take a look at VSCO2. It has a ton of dry solo instruments. There isn't the same sample density as some of the bigger studion's offerings and the players are more college level than London Phil, but for the price I think it is a very nice collection with lots of stuff. Note I created a Kontakt version and cocreated a VSTi version based on the CC0 community samples, so I'm biased.

Also note that this month you should be able to get Kontakt for $125 if you crossgrade from Drummica. Kontakt can open up many things for you, has a passible, if old, intro orchestra and as mentioned some nice freebies.
This ^^^

And there is also a free Virtual Playing Orchestra: http://virtualplaying.com/virtual-playing-orchestra/

This works with the free Plogue sforzando sample player: https://www.plogue.com/products/sforzando.html

To layer multiple instruments with sforzando, you will need an instance on each track, as the player is not multitimbral. But it is very light, so that should not be an issue for most computers.

The solo and sections sound good to me. They are dry, so add your favorite reverb, and you should be all set. This may not be the best library, but it is possibly the best 100% free solution. :tu:
Virtual Playing Orchestra is a free orchestra sample library, in sfz format, that attempts to emulate multiple articulations of the solo and section instruments from a full orchestra using the best free samples from Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra, No Budget Orchestra, VSCO2 Community Edition, University of Iowa, Philharmonia Orchestra and extra free samples from Mattias Westlund, author of Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra.

The plan was to start with Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra, add new samples from Mattias Westlund and samples from newly available sources that have recently become available to create what I would like to see from a Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra 2.0.

I’ve listened to every single sample that made it’s way into this library, and have done my best to replace any noisy samples, ensure each sample plays in tune, each note peaks at about the same volume and is panned in the center of the stereo field. I’m hoping this scrutiny will result in me being able to provide the best, most complete, free orchestral sample library.
Windows 10; with instruments from AIR, Ample Sound, AAS, Cakewalk, IK Multimedia, iZotope, KV331, NI, Seaweed Audio, SONiVOX, TAL, Tracktion, u-he, Way Out Ware, XLN, others...

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jancivil
KVRAF
15821 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Good Intimate, Singer Songwriter Type Orchestral Bundles?

Post Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:26 am

DSmolken wrote:Yeah, I'd say that string ensembles are possibly the hardest thing to find the right samples for, when it comes to instruments commonly used in this kind of music. Though maybe as a string player myself, I'm just too picky and opinionated.
Strings writing with samples is, for me anyway, some of the very hardest work. But it's more how to place them which is the can o' worms I mean here, I'm not a fan of just buying all of this noise floor like that's a superior sound per se, or having it placed for me (and I include the MIRx in VI Pro in this, unless I agree with it of course) according to this or the other 'conventional' staging.

And, it can take a whole lot of resources to get heavy into it using samples. Strings are more of a last resort for me, for reasons.

funky lime
KVRian
1155 posts since 17 Sep, 2002

Re: Good Intimate, Singer Songwriter Type Orchestral Bundles?

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:37 pm

the Alpine Project is pretty decent, considering it's free. Not every patch is a winner (same with any library, even the expensive ones) but it's still quite handy.

I'll also add my +1 for SWAM and Sample Modeling for intimate/close sounds. Also, Chris Hein solo strings seem quite powerful. These libraries do seem to like a lot of midi data if you're trying to get the most expressiveness out of them in an intimate setting.

There are a lot of sticklers for "realism" when it comes to this stuff, but you can end up chasing your tail endlessly if you concern yourself too much with that. If it sounds good, it probably is good, and screw realism. Sometimes the mix doesn't call for everything to be "properly" placed in the same space. I feel like that's one of those old-school things people obsess over out of some arbitrary loyalty to tradition. (See also: Skeuomorphic GUI in "analog" plugins) But I digress.

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