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jazztiz
KVRer
 
14 posts since 26 Apr, 2015

Postby jazztiz; Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:23 pm Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

Just bought Redwirez BigBox
Also have Recabinet 5 and some 3sigma IRs

Can anyone share your typical workflow of matching cabs to Thermionik Amps step by step?
Thanks in advance
Jotunbjorn
KVRer
 
12 posts since 27 May, 2016

Postby Jotunbjorn; Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:41 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

Here's my approach. I almost always use 3sigma cabs.
1. Make a drum loop
2. Record a riff to that loop using big chords
3. Play that loop
4. Select your amp and cab
5. Set post eq, High pass, Low pass and get rid of that nasty 4K
6. Set power amp saturation to desired amount
7. Set presence to desired amount
8. Mess around with amp eq and pre amp gain. I go by the order: Treble, Mid, Bass, Depth.
9. See if it needs an overdrive pedal in front of it
10. Try different cabs, you might have to chance presence again
11. Try to find a cab that cuts well through the mix
12. Mix that impulse with another that tames the nastiness (In my case that usually means mixing positions 1b with 5b of the 3sigmas.
13. When you find a cab that works repeat steps 6-12 until it sounds good with the drums.
jazztiz
KVRer
 
14 posts since 26 Apr, 2015

Postby jazztiz; Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:05 pm Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

Thanks!

Since Kazrog himself strives for authentity, is it a good idea to read real hardware amp/combo manuals to guess what cabinet or speaker types are matching it? Or is it all relative?

Also I've noticed that 3sigma impulses are bass and treble heavy when compared to others. Do I need EQ after to tame it?

My approach is to get right sound just right out of the box, without using any post or pre-processing.
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16294 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:35 pm Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

The point of 3sigma impulses that you DON'T need an EQ to tame them. They fit in the mix really well just how they are.
Jotunbjorn
KVRer
 
12 posts since 27 May, 2016

Postby Jotunbjorn; Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:13 pm Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

jazztiz wrote:...is it a good idea to read real hardware amp/combo manuals to guess what cabinet or speaker types are matching it? Or is it all relative?

I wouldn't bother with the limitations of the real world. Just use whatever sounds good.
jazztiz wrote:Also I've noticed that 3sigma impulses are bass and treble heavy when compared to others. Do I need EQ after to tame it?

Nah, just increase the middle eq setting in the amp.
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Kazrog
KVRian
 
755 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:43 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

Most of your favorite albums involved mixing different brands of amps and cabinets at some point in the equation. See also: preamp and poweramp mixing.

Let's talk about "authenticity," since that term really depends upon what we're trying to be authentic about. When I model an individual piece of gear, such as an amp, I'm modeling that in isolation, with the goal of accurately modeling that piece of gear.

What someone chooses to do with that model is up to them - because the Recabinet library and Thermionik models were created in entirely different years than each other, there was absolutely no vision of pairing a particular cabinet with a particular amp. Quite the opposite - cabinets are meant to be swapped out. Find what you like the best for the sound you're trying to get. Don't overthink it. If you're having to get surgical with EQ to dramatically sculpt the IR, consider using a different IR. Find the one that's the closest to what you want, right away, with the least amount of fussing about with EQ needed.
Shane McFee
CEO/CTO - Kazrog LLC
frthib
KVRist
 
74 posts since 29 Nov, 2017, from Québec, Québec, Canada

Postby frthib; Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:03 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

Kazrog wrote:Find what you like the best for the sound you're trying to get. Don't overthink it. If you're having to get surgical with EQ to dramatically sculpt the IR, consider using a different IR. Find the one that's the closest to what you want, right away, with the least amount of fussing about with EQ needed.


That's the single thoughest part in all that process.. I basically had to learn how to record and mix "old school" to learn what all those mics, angle, distance, etc... in the different IR means. I know in the end it will be "use what sound good in the mix" but the way to easily attain those "sound good" files can be a really lenghty one and you can so easily lose perspective once you auditionned 100's of IR.. assuming you don't really have an understand of what mics are.

A very generic recipe to get a basic "rock/metal" sound would be to use a sm57 mic pretty bright (often called "cap edge" with a distance of +- 1 inch) with a darker royer 121 (often called "cone" or "cone edge", same distance) and play with the volume of each mic to add brithness (more sm57) or darken the sound (more r121). More distance, less bass, different highs. Sometimes in the IR the distance is not specified.

@jazztiz : i tend to use the associated matching cab to the virtual amp.. I must have 4-5 mesa boogie oversized "brand" of IR, with each 100's of IR's. :) .. I then use the recipe explained sooner. In most IR loader you can save preset. In recabinet I have "V30 celestion", "V30 Ownhammer Mesa OS ", "v30 Recabinet OS ", etc... Save a lot of time
jazztiz
KVRer
 
14 posts since 26 Apr, 2015

Postby jazztiz; Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:51 pm Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

Well, studying more of amps/cabs area gives me even more confusion.

Most of Thermionik amps are high gain models. Most of real high gain amps are intended to play metal music paired mostly with 4x12 cabinets with Celestion 30-something models (vintage, greenback, creamback etc). And high gain amps are incompatible with with Fender-style 1x12 cabinets equipped with Jensen C12K

Moreover, Fender classic amps are incompatible with Celestion 4x12
Also some of amps (Mesa Boogie Mark IIC+) have very exotic cabinets and speakers, like Eminence Patriot Texas
And some of combos, like Supro 1690 and Roland JC are way incompatible with standard cab speakers.

Digital freedom is good, but I don't want to leave speaker/cab/amp engineers works, ideas and aspirations.
xphen0m
KVRian
 
750 posts since 27 Jan, 2008

Postby xphen0m; Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:48 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

jazztiz wrote:Digital freedom is good, but I don't want to leave speaker/cab/amp engineers works, ideas and aspirations.


IMO, that's a self-limiting mindset a lot of people have. I, myself, had to break out of that when it came to the digital realm.
jazztiz
KVRer
 
14 posts since 26 Apr, 2015

Postby jazztiz; Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:05 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

xphen0m wrote:IMO, that's a self-limiting mindset a lot of people have. I, myself, had to break out of that when it came to the digital realm.


Ironically, I'm entering guitar world after messing with synth only music for 25+ years.

IMO, all this guitar stuff is harder than FM Synthesis, just because FM deals with octaves, hertz, sines and dbs, and nearly all guitar stuff is made of vanity, headbanging, old speakers and amazing stories.
frthib
KVRist
 
74 posts since 29 Nov, 2017, from Québec, Québec, Canada

Postby frthib; Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:57 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

One of the single greatest guitar cab is the mesa boogie oversized recto 4x12 with v30 speakers.
Just put a sm57 in front of it. That's guitar 101.

Guitarists tradionnaly often use what's available. Is it a modded boss ds-1 through a fender concert head plugged in a sunn 4x12 with mismatched speakers? maybe. As long as it sound good.. Don't overthink it.

Don't assume a amp head is automatically matched with is available cab. An obscene amount of music was recorded with marshall cabs with greenback matched with whatever head the guitarist is using. And a huge amount of modern music was often reamped through a peavey 5150, often without the consent or knowledge of the guitar player. :lol: :lol: IF the recorded tracks where the one used. A certain amount of tracks are played by the sound engeneer or studio tech. A star guitar player is not always a GREAT interperter :lol: :lol:

You can try the Ownhammer demo cab for free. It's a mesa standart with celestion v30. All the standart mics are available. This cab is usable with ANY amp (fender, marshall, vox, mesa, engl, anything) and will sound great. A fender through a 4x12 won't be traditionnal but will sound great.

https://www.ownhammer.com/store/index.p ... cts_id=411
Last edited by frthib on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
frthib
KVRist
 
74 posts since 29 Nov, 2017, from Québec, Québec, Canada

Postby frthib; Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:02 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

jazztiz wrote:Celestion 30-something models (vintage, greenback, creamback etc).


... a celestion 30 is a "vintage 30" and is a different family from the greenback and creamback.

Just to confuse you more, there is a lot of different version of the V30.

you can go to celestionplus to learn more about speakers. (and IR)
jazztiz
KVRer
 
14 posts since 26 Apr, 2015

Postby jazztiz; Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:12 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

Thanks for your recommendations!
@frnhib @xphen0m @Jotunbjorn @evildragon and of course @kazrog !
Your calm and confident tone reassured me.

Staying with 3sigma and Recabinet IRs. Just returned Rewirez - it scares me, as well as Ownhammer :)
frthib
KVRist
 
74 posts since 29 Nov, 2017, from Québec, Québec, Canada

Postby frthib; Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:15 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

jazztiz wrote:Thanks for your recommendations!
@frnhib @xphen0m @Jotunbjorn @evildragon and of course @kazrog !
Your calm and confident tone reassured me.

Staying with 3sigma and Recabinet IRs. Just returned Rewirez - it scares me, as well as Ownhammer :)


Happy to help.. 3sigma and Recabinet are good choices. Good luck!
Jotunbjorn
KVRer
 
12 posts since 27 May, 2016

Postby Jotunbjorn; Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:16 am Re: Thermionik Matching Cabs for every Amp?

One more tip. When dialing in amps settings / trying different IR's, close your eyes. You might end up with a weird combination of eq settings into an IR that you'd never think to use with the amp in question, but if it sounds good you'll save a lot of time.

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