Question about Counterpoint

Share your music, collaborate, and partake in monthly music contests.
mediumaevum
KVRist
139 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Post Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:03 am

I wrote this piece, and I am frankly speaking, very very unsure if the entire piece works.

I know very littel about counterpoint, but I read about it and listened carefully to counterpoint in orchestrated music, and tried the best I could to apply these principles to my own melody.

Please tell me if the entire piece works well enough, and if there is counterpoint going on, or if the entire thing is just one big mess...

https://soundcloud.com/mediumaevum-arti ... al-banquet

Eauson
KVRian
836 posts since 9 Jan, 2013 from morf

Re: Question about Counterpoint

Post Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:19 am

mediumaevum wrote:I wrote this piece, and I am frankly speaking, very very unsure if the entire piece works.

I know very littel about counterpoint, but I read about it and listened carefully to counterpoint in orchestrated music, and tried the best I could to apply these principles to my own melody.

Please tell me if the entire piece works well enough, and if there is counterpoint going on, or if the entire thing is just one big mess...

https://soundcloud.com/mediumaevum-arti ... al-banquet
Not sure in the counterpoint question, I attempted to watch
Please see below :)
I like what you have here, it sounds as you described, mediaeval sounding, well what I have heard previously on records and TV, so. Not the greatest understanding.
Anyway :tu: I liked it :)
I also recognise it from somewhere, weird...

Sorry for shoving a yt into your post.
Last edited by Eauson on Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Man is least himself when he talks in the first person. Give him a mask, and he'll show you his true face

mediumaevum
KVRist
139 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Re: Question about Counterpoint

Post Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:25 am

Eauson wrote: I also recognise it from somewhere, weird...
Yes, that's wierd, because the entire thing was written today.

I'm glad you like it btw.

User avatar
ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Question about Counterpoint

Post Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:22 pm

Eauson wrote:I attempted to watch
https://youtu.be/JcqrGLvs95M
That video and it's follow-ups are utter rubbish! Amongst other things, I've been teaching Renaissance Counterpoint for around about 20 years and I was getting seriously confused by film 3! :0)
mediumaevum wrote:very very unsure if the entire piece works.
No, I don't think it works as a complete piece, but as an exercise in basic counterpoint it has a lot of good points.
mediumaevum wrote:if there is counterpoint going on
Yes there is!

The CP is at its strongest through the first phrase ending at around 15 seconds. Here you have definite, clearly defined 2 part writing with both lines of music moving independently and neither really leading as such. Also any implied harmonic / chordal movement is very much secondary to the melodic content.

It's a little bit messy (structure and shape are absolutely central to fully successful contrapuntal textures ) ...yours is a little bit wild at the moment...it does work , though.

2nd section with more parts loses it's shape even more at times and then the third section really starts to hint at underlying harmonies more strongly in a way that makes the melodic lines lose their impact / dominance a little bit. Also in this last section, one melody starts to lead a little strongly, so all the others become more like accompaniments.
mediumaevum wrote:I know very littel about counterpoint


You've jumped right into the DEEP end again here...

Why not start looking at counterpoint with something more straightforward?

What you are attempting here is what I would call FREE counterpoint and that's a very advanced skill / technique.

I would suggest trying to write a simple CANON as a good beginning.
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

Eauson
KVRian
836 posts since 9 Jan, 2013 from morf

Re: Question about Counterpoint

Post Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:29 pm

ChamMusic wrote:
Eauson wrote:I attempted to watch
https://youtu.be/JcqrGLvs95M
That video and it's follow-ups are utter rubbish! Amongst other things, I've been teaching Renaissance Counterpoint for around about 20 years and I was getting seriously confused by film 3! :0)
Sorry to butt in, :oops: as too posting.
This is why I gave up, its undecipherable to me, will delete from my post in order to stop me the :clown: from infecting others :D
Thanks for pointing this out.
Man is least himself when he talks in the first person. Give him a mask, and he'll show you his true face

mediumaevum
KVRist
139 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Re: Question about Counterpoint

Post Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:31 pm

Thanks, Cham. I have uploaded a new version, could you please listen to it again, and tell me if it works as an entire piece now?

User avatar
ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Question about Counterpoint

Post Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:41 am

Eauson wrote:
ChamMusic wrote:
Eauson wrote:I attempted to watch
https://youtu.be/JcqrGLvs95M
That video and it's follow-ups are utter rubbish! Amongst other things, I've been teaching Renaissance Counterpoint for around about 20 years and I was getting seriously confused by film 3! :0)
Sorry to butt in, :oops: as too posting.
This is why I gave up, its undecipherable to me, will delete from my post in order to stop me the :clown: from infecting others :D
Thanks for pointing this out.
Wasn't having a 'go' at you here...I was just stunned at why someone would post a video like that in the first place! :0)
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

User avatar
ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Question about Counterpoint

Post Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:07 am

mediumaevum wrote:Thanks, Cham. I have uploaded a new version, could you please listen to it again, and tell me if it works as an entire piece now?
It definitely hangs together better as a complete piece...less 'messy' now.

NOTE: Remember that you are in very deep musical waters here...this is very advanced stuff and you've admitted that you don't know very much about it at all yet!

For me, you've pulled back on the counterpoint a little bit in certain sections and maybe added to it in others? Somehow the balance is better overall.

COUNTERPOINT, in all its many forms can be very complex...

The small chunks of musical material in a piece need to be used in a very organized fashion - evolving and developing in a methodical manner which is also flowing and musical.

This 2 Part Invention by J.S. Bach is a great example of what I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4IzqJtD4dM


It is entirely based around the opening 8 notes in the upper part!

This article analyses the use of various contrapuntal devices in the piece and is very well written:

https://www.teoria.com/en/articles/BWV772/01-03.php

I know that this is JS Bach, (a musical genius), but what you can learn from this is that use of counterpoint needs to be highly organized down to the very fine details and can often be based around a very small fragment of music which is then developed and changed as the piece progresses.
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

Return to “Music Cafe”