Bitwig 2.4 announced

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
SLiC
KVRAF
2849 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:24 am

There is another thread for Live vs Bitwig if people still want to do that....I guess if you want to play ‘which is better’ in the update thread you could now argue that Bitwig has a better native sampler than Live in 2.4 which was a big plus for Live before (assuming you had suite).

I am also someone who owns Live 9 Suite (since about V4) and was a reluctant switcher to Bitwig as I had a lot of Live packs. There is absolutely no doubt that the features/speed of development with BWS has surpassed Live. Live does what it does very well, particularly with
Push as a live instrument, Bitwig went where I personally wanted live to go....obviously some part of the Ableton team felt the same way which is why they left and made Bitwig!

Let’s be greatful there are two great choices, pick your weapon and make some tunes!
Current Gear: i7 Win 10 + Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, X32 Desk. Rubicon R8s, DM12, P8, Virus TI, System 1m, Korg ARP, P6, Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, MPC Live, OP-1, Mother 32, Dominion Club, Roland TD8 and HPD-20, Guitars, Basses and Amps

Kypresso
KVRist
156 posts since 26 Mar, 2014

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:21 am

Reefius wrote:MPE has only been officially accepted by the MIDI Association since the end of january this year.

https://www.midi.org/images/easyblog_ar ... elease.pdf

This means that before that date, anyone could use their own interpretaion of MPE because there was no standard. I believe it was a smart move from Ableton to wait for an official standard.
So whats your explanation for abletons shameful lack of vst3 integration?
Vst3 has been around since 2011 and they stopped updating vst2 in 2013.

So can we just accept that companies all have their own agendas and just let people use what they want or are you just going to keep being a troll?

Reefius
KVRist
465 posts since 7 Dec, 2013 from Belgium

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:30 am

Kypresso wrote:So whats your explanation for abletons shameful lack of vst3 integration?
Vst3 has been around since 2011 and they stopped updating vst2 in 2013.
If you even had the slightest idea what you're talking about, you should know that VST3 is a complete joke and a developer's nightmare.

But no, you just want to have the newest and shiniest toys, even if they're completely useless. In that case Bitwig is the perfect DAW for you.

Bitwig devs like to add all the newest bells and whistles just because they can, even if it's just for bragging rights (which the fanboys do for them all the time here). Reminds me of how happy kids are when you give them a lolly or an ice cream.

This is why real producers don't take Bitwig seriously. Just look for any video's or tutorials about music producing, mixing or mastering. You will see a lot of Ableton Live, Cubase, Logic Pro, Pro Tools, Reaper, FL Studio, Studio One, ... But rarely anyone using Bitwig, unless you actually add Bitwig in the search field.

If it's such an amazing DAW, then why is almost nobody using it?

Here's an example:
Groove3.com has 38 tutorials about Ableton Live, 20 about Cubase, 65 about Logic Pro X and only 1 about Bitwig.

Zexila
KVRAF
3128 posts since 18 Mar, 2008

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:17 am

Image
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

Reefius
KVRist
465 posts since 7 Dec, 2013 from Belgium

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:32 am

Calling other people trolls by posting childish memes....priceless!

User avatar
VariKusBrainZ
KVRAF
8516 posts since 16 Dec, 2002

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:39 am

Image

Zexila
KVRAF
3128 posts since 18 Mar, 2008

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:39 am

You aren't just troll, you are fanboi troll. :lol:
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

User avatar
pdxindy
KVRAF
14025 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:40 am

Reefius wrote:MPE has only been officially accepted by the MIDI Association since the end of january this year.

https://www.midi.org/images/easyblog_ar ... elease.pdf

This means that before that date, anyone could use their own interpretaion of MPE because there was no standard. I believe it was a smart move from Ableton to wait for an official standard.
The standard has been essentially fixed for few years now. I cannot say whether Ableton has made a smart move of not... or whether they will ever implement MPE support in Live. They have enough customers, that even if they never implement it, they should be just fine. I think they are a good company, and it is up to them to do what they wish to do.

For me, buying a Linnstrument, I needed an MPE capable DAW... After playing the Linnstrument for a while, I could never go back to only a regular keyboard. For me, it is so expressive and beautiful to play. So an MPE capable DAW became essential. I would have stuck with Live otherwise as I had invested a lot in it.

I always liked Live over previous DAW's because it feels a bit more like an instrument itself. It's pretty fast to explore and try things. Bitwig is even much more like an instrument. It is an exceptional sound design and creative exploration tool! In that way it has way surpassed Live. When I launch Live now (9.7 not 10), it just feels clunky. Live still has some advantages, but they are not in areas that are of great importance to me. Plus Bitwig is developing faster. I used Live for 10 years, so I have seen its development pace over a good amount of time. I have way more confidence in Bitwig at this point.

poonna
KVRian
1335 posts since 3 Oct, 2001 from Thailand

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:46 am

Reefius wrote:
Kypresso wrote:So whats your explanation for abletons shameful lack of vst3 integration?
Vst3 has been around since 2011 and they stopped updating vst2 in 2013.
If you even had the slightest idea what you're talking about, you should know that VST3 is a complete joke and a developer's nightmare.
There are some VST3-only plugins out there. Whether VST3 is a complete joke or not is debatable, but not supporting VST3 means there are some plugins that Ableton cannot use.
Reefius wrote:But no, you just want to have the newest and shiniest toys, even if they're completely useless.
At this point, I don't think you're arguing from a logical point of view. "Completely useless" is a strong word and completely baseless. New stuff added to Bitwig are useful to a lot of people.
Reefius wrote:In that case Bitwig is the perfect DAW for you.

Bitwig devs like to add all the newest bells and whistles just because they can, even if it's just for bragging rights (which the fanboys do for them all the time here). Reminds me of how happy kids are when you give them a lolly or an ice cream.
This is resorting to bashing instead of presenting an objective point of view and evidences.
Reefius wrote:This is why real producers don't take Bitwig seriously. Just look for any video's or tutorials about music producing, mixing or mastering. You will see a lot of Ableton Live, Cubase, Logic Pro, Pro Tools, Reaper, FL Studio, Studio One, ... But rarely anyone using Bitwig, unless you actually add Bitwig in the search field.

If it's such an amazing DAW, then why is almost nobody using it?

Here's an example:
Groove3.com has 38 tutorials about Ableton Live, 20 about Cubase, 65 about Logic Pro X and only 1 about Bitwig.
I agree that Bitwig is still lacking on this front. It's still young, and probably not supported by a big company like Presonus Studio One which gains popularity quite quickly. Give it time though, there are lots of potential still.
Peace, my friends. I'm not seeking arguments here. ;)

User avatar
pekbro
KVRAF
2044 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:58 am

I wonder how the sampler changes are going to affect performance at
high resolutions. Seems like a lot of fancy graphical additions.

SLiC
KVRAF
2849 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:04 am

Reefius wrote:
Kypresso wrote:So whats your explanation for abletons shameful lack of vst3 integration?
Vst3 has been around since 2011 and they stopped updating vst2 in 2013.
If you even had the slightest idea what you're talking about, you should know that VST3 is a complete joke and a developer's nightmare.
Hmmm, that may be one of the dumbest things I have read for a while.

VST is Steinberg's tech, they have improved it (and stopped supporting the old tech)....every other DAW on the planet fully supports VST3...its just stupid not to when VST2 is discontinued and VST 3 offers numerous advantages. I don't thing I have a VST that doesn't support VST3 to advantage of things like silent audio CPU efficiency, sample accurate automation, sidechain, UI enhancements like hierarchical plugin and parameter categorization etc....so it seems the developers are managing quite well despite your protestation....
Current Gear: i7 Win 10 + Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, X32 Desk. Rubicon R8s, DM12, P8, Virus TI, System 1m, Korg ARP, P6, Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, MPC Live, OP-1, Mother 32, Dominion Club, Roland TD8 and HPD-20, Guitars, Basses and Amps

Reefius
KVRist
465 posts since 7 Dec, 2013 from Belgium

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:06 am

Bitwig devs have killed their own product in v1 by adding new features all the time instead of fixing bugs. These new features also contained new bugs so the bugs were only piling up. Bad decision #1.

Also the broken promises didn't do them any good (remember how full modular workflow and online collaboration were promised for v2?). Bad decision #2.

And then there's the new payment plan they introduced in v2. They can call it whatever they want, many people still see it as a subscription. Bad decision #3.

Now Bitwig has a history of bad decisions and people will only remember them for that. Once you have a bad reputation it's almost impossible to get rid of it.

Reefius
KVRist
465 posts since 7 Dec, 2013 from Belgium

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:09 am

SLiC wrote:
Reefius wrote:
Kypresso wrote:So whats your explanation for abletons shameful lack of vst3 integration?
Vst3 has been around since 2011 and they stopped updating vst2 in 2013.
If you even had the slightest idea what you're talking about, you should know that VST3 is a complete joke and a developer's nightmare.
Hmmm, that may be one of the dumbest things I have read for a while.

VST is Steinberg's tech, they have improved it (and stopped supporting the old tech)....every other DAW on the planet fully supports VST3...its just stupid not to when VST2 is discontinued and VST 3 offers numerous advantages. I don't thing I have a VST that doesn't support VST3 to advantage of things like silent audio CPU efficiency, sample accurate automation, sidechain, UI enhancements like hierarchical plugin and parameter categorization etc....so it seems the developers are managing quite well despite your protestation....
Ask Urs from U-He how he feels about VST3.

A quote from the VST3 Readme that comes with all U-He plugins:

Code: Select all

Important information about the VST3 version
--------------------------------------------

We recently rewrote our VST3 layer from scratch. The original implementation had some flaws, so we followed Steinberg's recommendation to adapt it to our specific requirements...

Unfortunately, we had to cut down on the MIDI Learn functions. Although its user interface is available in our VST3 plug-ins, nothing happens because VST3 doesn’t use raw MIDI data. In order to receive MIDI Control Changes (CC), the plug-in needs to report hundreds of special parameters to the host - one for each CC in each MIDI channel! A clumsy workaround. As this is a common issue, we proposed that Steinberg extend the VST3 standard with a MIDI Learn option. Until this is directly implemented in VST3 hosts, MIDI Learn is only available in the VST2, AU and AAX versions of our plug-ins.

Settings assigned in any of the other plug-in formats will be adopted by the VST3 version, however. This means you can set up your controllers using the VST2/AU/AAX version, then replace it with the VST3 version afterwards!

SLiC
KVRAF
2849 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:25 am

Reefius wrote:
SLiC wrote:
Reefius wrote:
Kypresso wrote:So whats your explanation for abletons shameful lack of vst3 integration?
Vst3 has been around since 2011 and they stopped updating vst2 in 2013.
If you even had the slightest idea what you're talking about, you should know that VST3 is a complete joke and a developer's nightmare.
Hmmm, that may be one of the dumbest things I have read for a while.

VST is Steinberg's tech, they have improved it (and stopped supporting the old tech)....every other DAW on the planet fully supports VST3...its just stupid not to when VST2 is discontinued and VST 3 offers numerous advantages. I don't thing I have a VST that doesn't support VST3 to advantage of things like silent audio CPU efficiency, sample accurate automation, sidechain, UI enhancements like hierarchical plugin and parameter categorization etc....so it seems the developers are managing quite well despite your protestation....
Ask Urs from U-He how he feels about VST3.
His opinion of VST3 is irrelevant, VST2 is gone (like it or not) and plug in developers (and 1 DAW manufacturer) need to work out how to use VST3 as it is the only format officially supported and has many advantages over VST2. Most developers seem to have managed it without issue or comment and you may have noticed that all of UHE plugs come in a VST3 version and the VST versions run with less CPU use on my system.
Current Gear: i7 Win 10 + Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, X32 Desk. Rubicon R8s, DM12, P8, Virus TI, System 1m, Korg ARP, P6, Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, MPC Live, OP-1, Mother 32, Dominion Club, Roland TD8 and HPD-20, Guitars, Basses and Amps

finkles
Banned
8 posts since 10 Jul, 2018

Re: Bitwig 2.4 announced

Post Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:32 am

Reefius wrote:Bitwig devs have killed their own product in v1 by adding new features all the time instead of fixing bugs. These new features also contained new bugs so the bugs were only piling up. Bad decision #1.

Also the broken promises didn't do them any good (remember how full modular workflow and online collaboration were promised for v2?). Bad decision #2.

And then there's the new payment plan they introduced in v2. They can call it whatever they want, many people still see it as a subscription. Bad decision #3.

Now Bitwig has a history of bad decisions and people will only remember them for that. Once you have a bad reputation it's almost impossible to get rid of it.

It would be one thing if you actually made a valid point, but you don't, you're just grasping at imaginary straws. If you don't like Bitwig, then that's fine, but you seem to hate it for some odd reason. Try channeling that drama into something else like your music.

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