What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
41792 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:09 am

yeah, again id say its how you use the tools.
playing a guitar line in to one of those audio to midi things and using the midi to control a synth, hell yeah.
add some string bends and even a basic lead patch can get freaky :hihi:

chord things, sometimes i like to jam along on my guitar and cba setting up the kb just for a quick progression.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
17542 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:10 am

Stamped Records wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:45 am
jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:41 am
Distorted Horizon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:07 am
MasterTuner wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:13 am
If you could choose one or two bits of music theory that were a lightbulb moment that really enhanced your songwriting, what would it be ?
Snap to scale in Reaper.
That's not a bit of music theory, that's you avoiding it.
Avoiding it, and avoiding good music in the process I believe. I have never done anything remotely close to beautiful using only major or minor. This opinion that runs around that says minor is sad and meaningful and major is upbeat and happy, well, that's a load of bolocks.
I get real sick of that one, it's just very noobie thinking.

This very elegaic feel (the last imaginary guitar solo) is thru the major mode. I won't say 'major scale' but Ionian, as it isn't functional, it's just IV - I.
but ultimately who gives a f**k anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3cu8sDa90Y

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
17542 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:17 am

vurt wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:09 am
yeah, again id say its how you use the tools.
playing a guitar line in to one of those audio to midi things and using the midi to control a synth, hell yeah.
add some string bends and even a basic lead patch can get freaky :hihi:
This, the notes it came away with was really a WTF and kind of amazing moment.
The rhythm has an odd relationship with what came before.

But you can subvert it. "bends" can really f**k with such an algorithm.




I find that when I make arguments to coherence and knowledge the reaction so often is a rebel without a clue trying to pigeonhole me as conservative stick-in-the-mud. Very lazy intellectually and just not scrupulous, you're telling us about yourself only. This isn't about a person particularly, a type of person to do this (who needs to) and the quality of the discourse that produces such a mistake. It's avoidable.

Stamped Records
KVRist
169 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:27 am

Don't think anyone could argue with this piece as a genuine and creative use for audio to midi. Is it the cartoony bit in the middle? Reminds me of Tangerine Dream.

That's the distinction I make too, one who doesn't need to use anything, is free to use anything. Take drum loops for example, the majority of house and techno music is created using drum loops - not only is half of the mix balanced and mastered on the basis of the use of even one of these loops, but you will find that the groove that people are dancing too is the loop or loops. I used to be of the opinion that I'd use loops at such time as I didn't need to use them, but then I'd have wasted my time if I was just gonna use them anyway so why waste a hard earned skill. Ergo, those that use them, need them, and that's what grinds my gears. A whole industry propped up by a lack of talent and effort that serves to make it more difficult for those earnest enough to do it themselves to get recognition for it. Take away a lot of these aids, and I argue we'd be left with a higher average quality of music.

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
8510 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:27 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:17 am
I find that when I make arguments to coherence and knowledge the reaction so often is a rebel without a clue trying to pigeonhole me as conservative stick-in-the-mud. Very lazy intellectually and just not scrupulous, you're telling us about yourself only. This isn't about a person particularly, a type of person to do this (who needs to) and the quality of the discourse that produces such a mistake. It's avoidable.
What's funny (and sad) is that the people that come here argue and accusing are people who, musically, are still in a very primary stage, and to whom "modern music" is their favorite rapper. :roll:
Fernando (FMR)

Stamped Records
KVRist
169 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:34 am

To put it very short, the artists awareness while creating is a very big factor in whether I consider it good music or not. The result can be a surprising experiment but it can't be one amazing sounding accident after another. The results are often very far from an accurate representation of the so called artist.

User avatar
telecode
KVRist
349 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:46 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:14 am
Nah, I actually think for the person that is tempted to buy into this nonsense it needs to be really explained:

because you approach the music making differently. you aren't navigating the way you have been accustomed to traditionally (by consciously thinking in terms of I - IV - V e.t.c.) .. you are navigating based on how the tool is design to function

I IV and V. The reason I said it looks like at best you know how to say it is these are the three basic functions of common practice harmony. Tonic; Subdominant; Dominant. (Another harmony might fit this paradigm as a 'substitute' or a slight offset of the full function. vi for I in major, for instance. Or not, 'passing' for instance.) There is no changing out IV for V or V for I or what-have-you being coherent. This is a basic building block. So the use of those particular Roman Numerals is a sign you don't know what you're even talking about. You're trying to fake it. You can call that characterization flaming you personally but I would have the exact same assessment of it - bullshit - no matter who did it. I'm not inclined to coddle you particularly having seen the arrogance before.

Either you can make a common practice chord progression happen or ya can't. Frequently the melody has some influence on what is possible, and the harmonization has *integrity* with that *idea*. There is music OTOH which is based in a known chord progression, and either you know it or you don't. If the idea is there will be a melody at a later date based in supposedly a novelty of a chord progression, you need to have a working grasp of the language as well.


"because you aren't navigating traditionally by consciously thinking according to basic building blocks" is the real meaning of this bogus sentence. It is total non-sequitur. One will remedy making bogus statements with some basic knowledge.
You can be butt-hurt by that assessment if that's how you roll. As far as a flaming, yes, my attitude is a bit colored by your prior fraudulence, and I'm noting the same tendency here. You're muddying the waters with shit.
Not sure how to reply to this. I have been using Roman numerals forever in this context. It's the only instance where I use Roman numerals.

That being said. Jancivil is right in that this is a music theory forum and we should be promoting music theory and not new tools .

It's good to know and master music theory. You can is it to become a teacher and teach little kids.in the neighborhood how to play.music.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear
Image

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
17542 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:49 am

Using loops is going to result in a lack of flow for most of what we're going to experience as a piece of music. I'm not going to try and speak to very experimental use of material using cutting, stretching, re-ordering in a more radical sense, as beyond my intent.

But for instance, I have tried and use the phrases in EWQL RA, which are legit musical phrases in the idiom but they're out of all context and it's not designed so that anything really follows. It would be better if there were little gestures which make sense *typically* (cadences) along with an intelligent solo legato script. Or like in jazz, you do provide 'doits' and 'falls'; in classical percussion, 'upbeats' and rolls.

Construction kits sort of approach, you can do too much and it's not giving the user more, really. So you can abstract that argument out, you're trying to copy/paste someone else's idea of what is useful generically: where is the line of thought? What is the actual idea? Are you Dr Frankenstein building a very unhappy monster who would rather not have been started.

I think they're really made for a singer-songwriter to get a song started very generically. I don't think trying that as your own work is a good m.o. For you as a person to begin with. Music is so rich and you're trying to miss out. (universal 'you', NB)

User avatar
IncarnateX
KVRAF
3681 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:57 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:10 am
Avoiding it, and avoiding good music in the process I believe. I have never done anything remotely close to beautiful using only major or minor. This opinion that runs around that says minor is sad and meaningful and major is upbeat and happy, well, that's a load of bolocks.
I get real sick of that one, it's just very noobie thinking.
Yeah. My favorite nonsense is “music consist of rhythm, harmony and melody”. Guess which part sucks most to someone in love with polyphony. And they pop up on KVR too, but fortunately, some of you are usually at them before I notice, so I do not have to state the obvious myself.
Last edited by IncarnateX on Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
17542 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:02 am

fmr wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:27 am
jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:17 am
I find that when I make arguments to coherence and knowledge the reaction so often is a rebel without a clue trying to pigeonhole me as conservative stick-in-the-mud. Very lazy intellectually and just not scrupulous, you're telling us about yourself only. This isn't about a person particularly, a type of person to do this (who needs to) and the quality of the discourse that produces such a mistake. It's avoidable.
What's funny (and sad) is that the people that come here argue and accusing are people who, musically, are still in a very primary stage, and to whom "modern music" is their favorite rapper. :roll:
To wit:
Modernity in the present is defined by Drake, Hasley, DJ Khalid
on Wednesday

seems like only yesterday ;)

Stamped Records
KVRist
169 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:21 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:10 am
Stamped Records wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:45 am
jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:41 am
Distorted Horizon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:07 am
MasterTuner wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:13 am
If you could choose one or two bits of music theory that were a lightbulb moment that really enhanced your songwriting, what would it be ?
Snap to scale in Reaper.
That's not a bit of music theory, that's you avoiding it.
Avoiding it, and avoiding good music in the process I believe. I have never done anything remotely close to beautiful using only major or minor. This opinion that runs around that says minor is sad and meaningful and major is upbeat and happy, well, that's a load of bolocks.
I get real sick of that one, it's just very noobie thinking.

This very elegaic feel (the last imaginary guitar solo) is thru the major mode. I won't say 'major scale' but Ionian, as it isn't functional, it's just IV - I.
but ultimately who gives a f**k anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3cu8sDa90Y
I believe we're all here because we give a fook, and some of us are only trying our best. You try learning music without guidance and see how you get on.

Actually, I think I misinterpreted. The newbie thinking is the whole major is happy minor is sad thing. Yeah, it's totally false but it took me a long time to realise that.
Last edited by Stamped Records on Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
telecode
KVRist
349 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:35 am

Anyways. Reigning it all back in on topic before the two usual suspects tried to derail this into an orgy of polyphony and all that fancy jazz.

Op asked what was a lightbulb moment in music discovery. I shared it. The lightbulb moment was when I realized there are new tools out there that people are using daily and those tools can be used in different ways to achieve results.

Sometimes it's good to use those tools and see how things are created and deconstruct it and take things apart.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear
Image

User avatar
telecode
KVRist
349 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:37 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:10 am
Stamped Records wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:45 am
jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:41 am
Distorted Horizon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:07 am
MasterTuner wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:13 am
If you could choose one or two bits of music theory that were a lightbulb moment that really enhanced your songwriting, what would it be ?
Snap to scale in Reaper.
That's not a bit of music theory, that's you avoiding it.
Avoiding it, and avoiding good music in the process I believe. I have never done anything remotely close to beautiful using only major or minor. This opinion that runs around that says minor is sad and meaningful and major is upbeat and happy, well, that's a load of bolocks.
I get real sick of that one, it's just very noobie thinking.

This very elegaic feel (the last imaginary guitar solo) is thru the major mode. I won't say 'major scale' but Ionian, as it isn't functional, it's just IV - I.
but ultimately who gives a f**k anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3cu8sDa90Y
You progressed from posting lame Berklee flute to Zappa. I am impressed. I look forward to your posts of Steve Reich when you find them.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear
Image

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
17542 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:42 am

Stamped Records wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:27 am
Don't think anyone could argue with this piece as a genuine and creative use for audio to midi. Is it the cartoony bit in the middle?
Yes, at 103 seconds as cued in the URL, only the embed here won't.

I wanted something out of rhythm created by the delay basically (it was more than one thing, and wasn't synced to tempo), I knew it wasn't really going to be able to deal with that much input but it was useful and had some resemblance.

User avatar
telecode
KVRist
349 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:44 am

jancivil wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:49 am
Using loops is going to result in a lack of flow for most of what we're going to experience as a piece of music. I'm not going to try and speak to very experimental use of material using cutting, stretching, re-ordering in a more radical sense, as beyond my intent.

But for instance, I have tried and use the phrases in EWQL RA, which are legit musical phrases in the idiom but they're out of all context and it's not designed so that anything really follows. It would be better if there were little gestures which make sense *typically* (cadences) along with an intelligent solo legato script. Or like in jazz, you do provide 'doits' and 'falls'; in classical percussion, 'upbeats' and rolls.

Construction kits sort of approach, you can do too much and it's not giving the user more, really. So you can abstract that argument out, you're trying to copy/paste someone else's idea of what is useful generically: where is the line of thought? What is the actual idea? Are you Dr Frankenstein building a very unhappy monster who would rather not have been started.

I think they're really made for a singer-songwriter to get a song started very generically. I don't think trying that as your own work is a good m.o. For you as a person to begin with. Music is so rich and you're trying to miss out. (universal 'you', NB)
Your assumption of what and how people are as should experience a piece of music is highly snob and assumes they are you. A human experiences a piece of music in many different ways. A EDM fan at a EDM events is there to experience the beats and the euphoria of the crowd. They aren't going to sit in a corner and focus on the technical aspects of what they are hearing. They are still experiencing the music.

My own personal take on use of loops is , it's a cheap short cut ... But I guess it's no different that buying presets for Diva or Massive. The presets save you from investing time.into learning sound design and learning the VST synth and allow you to.focus and direct your efforts to creating a song. There is nothing wrong with that in my books. Some people prefer to focus on song structure and arrangements instead of sound design . Thats.all good.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear
Image

Return to “Music Theory”