2CAudio Precedence

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
jens
KVRAF
18946 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:53 am

Andrew Souter wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:49 am
try Denis's notes:
2ca wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:23 am
tip: click on the circle and then you can use keyboard's arrow keys to change angle and distance. holding down shift key will trigger 'fine-tuning' mode. note: it might not work in some hosts.

Denis,
2CAudio
Oh, nice! That works flawlessly indeed - thanks! :-D
" It is a measurable fact. Not my opinion. And not even subtle. If you can't hear difference in tail between Valhalla and VSR reverb tail then again change your job dude." kmonkey

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2417 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:10 pm

Andrew Souter wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:39 pm
VariKusBrainZ wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:22 am
Surely if this was built into Breeze it would be the definitive reverb
yes, absolutely. At least for "real instrument" use.

We thought about smashing them into one. Like a PB&J sandwich. :D

I suppose we are still thinking about it. But we sort of prefer to have Precedence separate and have our reverbs be "Precedence aware" and allow them to talk to each other. We want to be able to use Precedence with B2 and Aether also. And we want to be able to use P and verbs separately as well.

and if we were to make them into one, it gets quite complicated to manage this many verbs -- for us and for you. Breeze, Aether, B2, "PBJ", etc. Our thinking at the moment to keep them independent and preserve your investment and indeed enhance it with this kind of intra-plugin communication. We want everyone to own the Perfect Storm Bundle eventually. We're not shy about that. We think we can cover "All the space you need" with this product line: Precedence, Breeze 2, B2, Aether. And as we get to 2.0 for B2 and Aether they will get a little more differentiated so we have less questions about which one to use etc.

We like the Perfect Storm platform. We think this is a big enough container for all our (stereo) spatial ideas.

We do like surround also.

Another possibility is to keep Precedence as its own standalone product/plug-in, but also allow it ALSO to be an "unlock-able add-on module" in our verbs. So in Breeze 2.x for example you would enter a License for the Breeze part, and optionally another License (the one you just bought - NOT ANOTHER FEE - if you did) for Precedence. Then if you wanted to use Precedence and Breeze together you would just load Breeze and the Precedence GUI would be another page accessible within Breeze.

Pricing for Precedence would be the same. You would still have the ability to use Precedence separately, or with other third party verbs, or by itself etc. You would still have the ability to use Breeze without Precedence.

This would then obviously be less complicated for you to set up and is 100% certain to keep Precedence and Breeze parameters synced.

Feedback welcome...
Last edited by Andrew Souter on Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sqigls
KVRAF
3386 posts since 25 Dec, 2004 from Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:11 pm

sounds good to me

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33tetragammon
KVRist
216 posts since 22 Aug, 2010 from Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:59 am

yeah sounds like a good idea!

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2417 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:27 am

Tp3 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:17 am
Andrew Souter wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:10 am
Tp3 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:00 am
Andrew,

I am getting SEVERE phase problems with stereo sources - upon loading the plug.

Am I the only one with this ?...
In Breeze? Example please. Screenshot of the preset and/or the preset.
Oh... sorry.

Wrong topic (but "linked" - so to speak :))

It's in precedence.

No screenshot is needed. you load Precedence and you start hearing phasing.
"Phasing" like phaser/flanger phasing, i.e. modulating comb filtering, or Phasing meaning simply something like phase-inverion between L and R?

On what kind of sound?

if you click the "Variation Randomize" dice on the right, does it change?

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2417 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:29 am

also, you mention, "With stereo sources", does this mean, with something that is mono to start, you do not experience it?

Are you using Mid-Sid Expand/Collapse input mode and is it something other than 100%?

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Tp3
KVRAF
2133 posts since 8 Feb, 2007

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:06 am

Andrew Souter wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:29 am
"Phasing" like phaser/flanger phasing, i.e. modulating comb filtering ?
Yes.
Andrew Souter wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:29 am
also, you mention, "With stereo sources", does this mean, with something that is mono to start, you do not experience it?
Stereo.

I tried all sort of combinations, mono AND stereo input source... fiddled with the knobs - to no avail. I have something similar in my tool box (I bought Precedence for it's link abilities with Breeze2 - which I own) - but the other tool gave me no phase issues at all.
Andrew Souter wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:29 am
Are you using Mid-Sid Expand/Collapse input mode and is it something other than 100%?
Nope. drum machine straight into Precedence.
What is best ? How do you define 'best'? If you're talking about what you can think, what you can feel, what you can listen and hear, then 'best' is simply marketing signals (ie. hype) interpreted by your brain.

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aMUSEd
KVRAF
30052 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:06 am

I would prefer this to be integrated into the verbs

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2417 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:32 am

@Tp3 send an audio clip to us so we can take a listen. happy to check it out.

however, see next post:

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2417 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:37 am

FYI guys, I will be traveling (to LA) all day tomorrow and out of the office most of the day Tuesday and part of the day Wednesday. That's why i've tried to put in some good hours here to answer initial questions in the past two days. I'll answer support/info/sales emails of course, but forum presence will be limited.

I'll be back later in the week. :tu:

If you have a question be sure to check earlier pages also as there was some good info posted already.

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cturner
KVRist
361 posts since 7 Dec, 2009 from GWB

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:02 am

jens wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:50 am
Yes, it was directed at you and I disagree with you. I tried quite a few plugins in the past that were kind of similar but none of them gave me the same kind of "realistic space" sensation as Precedence. Could you give an example of what other plugin would be doing the same thing with just as good results?
(To stray off-topic for a moment, I do second your shout-out to IK for putting MS controls on practically all of their plugins. A hugely underrated feature there.)

I have some hesitance here because I'm mostly interested in the methodological implications of Precedence's use in mixing, rather than suggesting other things as equivalent.

I see the Precedence/Breeze combination as having three major components. The first is an integrated panner and gain control responding to the mouse cursor. You can hear this by itself by taking Precedence's Width down to 0, effectively shutting off the "spatial modulation". The second is--of course--the modulation itself. Finally, there is the link with Breeze 2.1 which coordinates the dry/wet mix and pre-delay with the implicit distance settings made in Precedence.

This last feature was worth looking at in some detail, and I made a chart which I share below. 2CAudio organized the reverb styles in their menu running from largest to smallest, or "Classic Low" to "Colored B". The table below lists the reverb styles, and in the far right column the approximate setting of pre-delay at distance 0.0 or "Dry" in (I presume) milliseconds. The far left column lists the Breeze Distance/Mix settings required to produce a 25ms pre-delay, and the middle column lists Mix settings to produce 50ms pre-delay. This was all eye-balled off Breeze's graph display, so I make no assertions about great accuracy.

Image

So breaking things down into these three components and using the information garnered from the Precedence/Breeze "link" I made a test file, the URL of which is below. (~4.1Mb download) It sticks mostly to default settings, with the least amount of adjustment necessary to bring things into comparison.

http://vze26m98.net/kvr/Precedence%20Guitar-181014.zip

The file was produced in a 96khz Reaper session using AAS's String Studio "Electric Nylon" guitar to produce three notes, plus space for reverberance. So the first set of three constitute one version, and the second set of three another, as described below.

One version features Precedence/Breeze, with Precedence set at a 45 degree angle and 50.0 "Distance". In Breeze, I set the PD Link, 50.0 Mix and "Classic Med" reverb style.

The other version uses DMG TrackControl to provide the 45 degree angle and a gain setting matched to Precedence's 50.0. The "spatial modulation" was provided by Nugen's Stereoizer in its default setting. There are, however, a lot of plugs that provide pseudo-stereo. PSP Audio's Stereo Pack is another "natural" one I like, but even chorus and doubler plugs, like the Voxengo Chorus and Softube Fix Doubler can provide quite natural results if set appropriately. Finally, I used Exponential Audio's PhoenixVerb, using the default "Medium Hall" style, but set the pre-delay to 13ms after eye-balling the equivalent Breeze setting, and placed PhoenixVerb's mix at 50%.

Obviously, the two versions don't sound the same, and to some extent, that wasn't the goal. But, two questions for everyone: which is which, and which do you prefer?
Tranzistow Tutorials: http://vze26m98.net/tranzistow/
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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2417 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:46 am

...or here's a real guitar :

https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/product ... et-Dry.wav

dry at the end if you wish to experiment...

P is something like Angle 45deg an distance something around 50 or so if I remember correctly... and Breeze, nothing else.

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plexuss
KVRAF
2375 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:02 am

I've been using "spacializers" (that's what I call them) for quite awhile. It's almost impossible to get any consistency when it comes to depth of field and expecially height. I find the same thing with Precedence, although Precedence doesn't work with height. That is, these appear to be very system dependent in terms of what you hear exactly. So I condsider them approximations and my expectation that I can actually control the sound-stage is minimal. In short, they are fun to use but don't expect any consistency across systems in terms of projecting your intended sound-stage. On thing about Precedence is that it sounds better than other spacializers I've used that otherwise colour the tone and texture of the sound - Precedence does a better job of leaving things intact. YMMV :phones:

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XComposer
KVRist
235 posts since 18 Aug, 2006 from Italy

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:44 pm

Sorry, a banal question: when will the introductory price period end, please?
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Mac, OS X 10.11, Logic Pro X

MogwaiBoy
KVRAF
2849 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:29 pm

I guess asking about mono-compatibility would be a silly thing to do? :)

Has anyone compared to Fieldler Audio 'Stage'?

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