Do I “need” analog synths?

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4936 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:01 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:42 pm
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:02 pm
Digital synths (and many portable analog synths!) have been like this since day one of MIDI. It’s like people don’t care (I didn’t grasp it until a few years ago). Those who do care are already(?) playing with analog synths and handling them like you’d do any live performance device (record the audio into the DAW and move on).
Or they do everything ITB so they don't have to deal with MIDI at all. Life is built on compromises, you just have to work our which ones are easier to live with.
Sure, but I don’t like working all ITB any more. I need tactile controls at times. So... MIDI.
BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:42 pm
I have never had any issues with zipper noise when using my controllers or digital hardware synths so I did a bit of a search, to see if it was real or imagined and found this interesting forum thread - https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5796
No problems with my cables. It’s the resolution.
BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:42 pm
So maybe the problems you're having aren't directly related to MIDI being 8 bit, which nobody ever complained about 25 years ago,
I wouldn’t know about 25 years ago. I do know I’m not totally alone in my complaint today. It’s just a subtlety that few notice or encounter.
BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:42 pm
maybe something else is quantising your MIDI (Trinity used to do that if your settings weren't right) or interfering with it?
Pretty sure it’s just as I’m seeing it. It’s not always a problem. It may even be rarely a problem. Still, I want the option to be free of it on some synths AND have dedicated controls. Thus, analog hardware.
BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:42 pm
SJ_Digriz wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:11 pm
Yes, they have much more tactile control that has an immediacy that isn't currently possible with VSTi ...
There is no reason that turning a virtual knob with your mouse should be any less tactile than turning a physical knob. You do both things with your hand and any differences exist mostly in your head.
With the mouse? My goodness, there’s a massive difference, and it’s totally physical! The mouse provides zero tactile feedback to the range ends, has no friction or resistance, and no guide for the direction of motion. It’s a blind throw with no feedback. Tolerable for editing. Terrible for performance.

It’s not in my head. If you don’t feel the same, so be it. We differ and that’s okay.

When it comes to MIDI control surfaces, the configuration is the annoyance for me. Having to make sure that a knob does what I think it does, before turning it, when it might also be mapped to numerous other parameters... I don’t enjoy changing the wrong parameters and then undoing it (if undo even covers that, because it often doesn’t) and then figuring out where I really needed to be. It’s a major time waste and frustration generator.

BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:42 pm
What I have noticed a lot, though, is that most VSTi presets do a lousy job of basic expressiveness.
Oh I FULLY agree!
BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:42 pm
But a well designed patch for any half-decent VSTi will be just as lively when played with a controller as any hardware synth.
Once configured, sure. I’m sick of constantly changing settings, menu-diving, and whatnot. I want to have some gear that isn’t about that model of functionality.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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vurt
addled muppet weed
41762 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:29 am

pekbro wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:39 pm
Here have a listen to the Rene 2, in my latest experiment (last night) and the last I will be doing
with only the 20 patch cables included with the synth :D

https://soundcloud.com/user-663163390/m ... ian-test-2
scuse the french but, holy f**k! that was great!! :hyper:
and you where asking me how to get things going with it :o
was that just one live run through? no? surely?

n+1 is how many patch cables you need.
n being how many you have :hihi:

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pekbro
KVRAF
2410 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:20 am

Wow, thx vurt. Seriously, that’s encouraging coming from you. :)

Yeah, that is an arrangement. Only using a filter and a reverb though. Other than that, it’s all the Cartesian.

Yeah, got some cables more finally, still not enough.

-cheers

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vurt
addled muppet weed
41762 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:40 am

:tu:
well i certainly look forward to hearing more, as you become more confident with it. youre already clearly exploring the different sonic options, and despite the small number of modules, they have been well chosen to give such a palette 8)

and more cables is always good, may as well use any available outs and inputs to see if anything fun happens :D

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7711 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:27 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:01 am
Pretty sure it’s just as I’m seeing it. It’s not always a problem. It may even be rarely a problem. Still, I want the option to be free of it on some synths AND have dedicated controls. Thus, analog hardware.
Why analogue? AFAIK, most digital hardware doesn't use MIDI internally, just like a DAW, so you don't get the 128 step restriction.
With the mouse? My goodness, there’s a massive difference, and it’s totally physical! The mouse provides zero tactile feedback to the range ends, has no friction or resistance, and no guide for the direction of motion. It’s a blind throw with no feedback. Tolerable for editing. Terrible for performance.
You'd hate playing trombone, then. However, having been the trombone player in my school band, I am used to feeling my own way with things, so I find a mouse tactile enough for my needs. e.g. Why does it matter if I can or can't feel it hit the stop at themed? What matters is that it goes all the way there. That said, most of the time I adjust things with my scroll wheel, not by moving the mouse, precisely because it is much easer to gauge how far you've moved it by the number of clicks.

Overall, though, the absolute last thing I want to be doing in the middle of a performance is turning a f**king knob. Therefore, everything I need for performance goes to the mod wheel or joystick or whatever my hardware happens to have.
It’s not in my head. If you don’t feel the same, so be it. We differ and that’s okay.
Which would indicate that it is in your head, otherwise we'd all feel it.
When it comes to MIDI control surfaces, the configuration is the annoyance for me. Having to make sure that a knob does what I think it does, before turning it, when it might also be mapped to numerous other parameters... I don’t enjoy changing the wrong parameters and then undoing it (if undo even covers that, because it often doesn’t) and then figuring out where I really needed to be. It’s a major time waste and frustration generator.
Yes, agree 100%. Can't understand why anyone would bother. I've had a few controllers with assignable knobs over the years but I've never even thought to use them for anything.
BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:42 pm
But a well designed patch for any half-decent VSTi will be just as lively when played with a controller as any hardware synth.
Once configured, sure. I’m sick of constantly changing settings, menu-diving, and whatnot. I want to have some gear that isn’t about that model of functionality.
But you still have to set that stuff up with hardware, it's not magic. in fact, sometimes it's a lot more fiddly with hardware than with software. e.g. Elektron Analog Keys - the only way I can use that thing is through the VSTi editor. Trying to assign things from the machine itself is a royal PITA. I realise that's not the kind of hardware you are talking about but if you want to have all the power and flexibility you can get from a VSTI, that's the sort of hardware you need to be looking at. Otherwise you end up with lots of layers of the same thing. Great if you're stuck in the 70s, not so great for 2019.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Ultranova, Rocket, Pulse 2, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno.

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Aliens
KVRian
717 posts since 2 Oct, 2016 from DogGirlDon't

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:06 pm

BONES wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:27 pm
Why analogue?
Someone forgot to bold. :lol:
Now a precedent has been set. To revert is admitting defeat :hihi:

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nix808
KVRAF
3703 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:35 pm

Bones can't even pretend 8D

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4936 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 pm

BONES wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:27 pm
It’s not in my head. If you don’t feel the same, so be it. We differ and that’s okay.
Which would indicate that it is in your head, otherwise we'd all feel it.
Jesus f#cking christicles, BONES, I’m cutting this off right the f#ck there and NOT getting into another goddamned “BONES knows best” argument. Either accept that you aren’t the default norm for all people, or shove off to some other goddamned thread where other members haven’t had enough of you yet. Even engaging with you politely leads to your judgmental arrogance, and I’m f#cking sick of it because it’s goddamned tiresome as f#ck!
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4936 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:36 pm

Ignore list isn’t a complete solution, but...

Sigh.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7711 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:13 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 pm
Jesus f#cking christicles, BONES, I’m cutting this off right the f#ck there and NOT getting into another goddamned “BONES knows best” argument. Either accept that you aren’t the default norm for all people, or shove off to some other goddamned thread where other members haven’t had enough of you yet. Even engaging with you politely leads to your judgmental arrogance, and I’m f#cking sick of it because it’s goddamned tiresome as f#ck!
All of which is to say that you know it's all in your head, you just don't want to admit it for whatever reason. Good work. Honestly, how hard is to admit that it's just what you'd rather do, why do you have to have a bullshit justification for it? That's all I'm sayin'. It's easy, I do it with all my hardware synths - I don't need it, it doesn't sound any better than, or even as good as, my VSTi and I won't ever use any of it in any recording because it's too much hassle. I just like having it around, which is reason enough, isn't it? Why do you need to pretend there is an actual reason for it, rather than just personal preference? And then to get so defensive over it all. It makes no sense.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Ultranova, Rocket, Pulse 2, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno.

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4936 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:20 pm

For anyone who cares: my Sweetwater sales engineer called me back to say that the manufacturers declared I can’t damage anything by interconnecting the Behringer Model D, Neutron, and Korg MS-20.

This is the third time that this has been stated by various sources, so I am going to assume that there’s no risk.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

deastman
KVRAF
6993 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:54 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:20 pm
For anyone who cares: my Sweetwater sales engineer called me back to say that the manufacturers declared I can’t damage anything by interconnecting the Behringer Model D, Neutron, and Korg MS-20.

This is the third time that this has been stated by various sources, so I am going to assume that there’s no risk.
I’m not going back over ten pages to find the previous discussion about this. I’ll just confirm that the Model D and Neutron both conform to Eurorack standards for gate/cv. The MS-20 is fine, except that the oscillators won’t track at 1 volt/octave. You won’t harm anything either way. Just don’t connect outputs to outputs, which should be obvious enough. Also, I’ve always felt that the MS-20 was most effective as a processor for external audio signals anyway. Have fun!
Incomplete list of my gear: 110V AC to 12V DC 1.5A power supply (+ tip)

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pekbro
KVRAF
2410 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Heh, Incidentally, I was actually wrong about being wrong about plugging an output into an output on my modular. After having actually taken a look at the manual. So I was twice as wrong about that :D

What did you decide for the stands Jace, out of curiosity? The printed stands, for me, are definitely the solution. At least until I need something a lot bigger.

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4936 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:54 pm

deastman wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:54 pm
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:20 pm
For anyone who cares: my Sweetwater sales engineer called me back to say that the manufacturers declared I can’t damage anything by interconnecting the Behringer Model D, Neutron, and Korg MS-20.

This is the third time that this has been stated by various sources, so I am going to assume that there’s no risk.
I’m not going back over ten pages to find the previous discussion about this. I’ll just confirm that the Model D and Neutron both conform to Eurorack standards for gate/cv. The MS-20 is fine, except that the oscillators won’t track at 1 volt/octave.
Which was repeatedly covered, including by me, in the prior posts ;-) :-)
deastman wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:54 pm
You won’t harm anything either way.

That was all I wanted to confirm.
deastman wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:54 pm
Just don’t connect outputs to outputs, which should be obvious enough.
It’s not always obvious. Looking at my iMS-20, some things aren’t labeled as in or out, while others are. A benefit of software is that it won’t let you mess that up.

Some synth people have told me that out to out should also be safe, assuming the synth designer cared to make their synth accident-proof. What say you?
deastman wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:54 pm
Also, I’ve always felt that the MS-20 was most effective as a processor for external audio signals anyway. Have fun!
Definitely one of the reasons I’m interested in it.

Cheers!
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4936 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:55 pm

pekbro wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm
Heh, Incidentally, I was actually wrong about being wrong about plugging an output into an output on my modular. After having actually taken a look at the manual. So I was twice as wrong about that :D

What did you decide for the stands Jace, out of curiosity? The printed stands, for me, are definitely the solution. At least until I need something a lot bigger.
I haven’t come to any solutions for stands or other desktop furniture :-/ It seems everything is either too expensive or too flimsy.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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