So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
User avatar
commodore
KVRist
294 posts since 19 Feb, 2013

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:31 pm

Fun but serious question.

As reFX no longer sells or transfers licenses for Vanguard, I "purchased" someones serial here at kvr a while back. I'd like to seriously use it, but unsure of the hidden consequences. They gon' sue me?

User avatar
Gamma-UT
KVRAF
4642 posts since 8 Jun, 2009 from UK

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:49 pm

It seems doubtful though it is reFx...

In any case, if it were over copyright infringement or breach of contract it would be the person who sold it to you who would carry the can. But what material damages would they claim - for a product that is no longer on sale?

chk071
KVRAF
19420 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:11 pm

If you're unsure, don't use it. Why potentially f*** with a company's EULA, if you don't have to?

Ploki
KVRian
729 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:14 pm

If you're breaching EULA might as well just use a crack :D

chk071
KVRAF
19420 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:15 pm

Yep.

Digivolt
KVRist
341 posts since 21 Nov, 2018

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:17 pm

I'd say it depends on your location, in Europe you'd be protected under EU Law

https://www.itassetmanagement.net/2014/ ... s-you-can/

US and elsewhere there has been no rulings to set precedence so, you could maybe be the first :)

Ploki
KVRian
729 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:28 pm

Digivolt wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:17 pm
I'd say it depends on your location, in Europe you'd be protected under EU Law

https://www.itassetmanagement.net/2014/ ... s-you-can/

US and elsewhere there has been no rulings to set precedence so, you could maybe be the first :)
hey, so companies that make their license NFR after being sold are breaking the EU law?

User avatar
commodore
KVRist
294 posts since 19 Feb, 2013

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:29 pm

Gamma-UT wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:49 pm
But what material damages would they claim - for a product that is no longer on sale?
Right - Not sure why they would care.
chk071 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:11 pm
If you're unsure, don't use it. Why potentially f*** with a company's EULA, if you don't have to?
For sure, and that is kinda why I'm asking. I doubt I'll get 100% reassurance to use it without consequence, but maybe refx will still see there is a group of people that are still interested in vanguard and chime in. :ud:
Digivolt wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:17 pm
US and elsewhere there has been no rulings to set precedence so, you could maybe be the first :)
haha, that sounds scary.

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
43055 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:41 pm

you might randomly get kicked in the nuts while buying liquor at the corner shop :o

chk071
KVRAF
19420 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:41 pm

Ploki wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:28 pm
hey, so companies that make their license NFR after being sold are breaking the EU law?
According to the KVR hobby lawyers: Yes. Thing is, even when you'd take the company to court, and stand a chance that you win the case, i doubt it'd be worth it for a 15 year old plugin. And, i doubt that it'd be worth for the users as well, because, what happens is that the comapnies will raise their prices, when they all have to make their plugins resellable, without limitations, to make up for the double and triple support cases they might have to give. So, yes, thanks for fighting for our rights, you geniuses.

Digivolt
KVRist
341 posts since 21 Nov, 2018

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:44 pm

Ploki wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:28 pm
hey, so companies that make their license NFR after being sold are breaking the EU law?
I don't think there's a specific law they're breaking, it's more that if you were to challenge them by taking them to court for your right to sell your license you stand a better chance of winning as the 2012 case has set precedence

It might be worth asking in https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/ to be honest

Ploki
KVRian
729 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:45 pm

chk071 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:41 pm
Ploki wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:28 pm
hey, so companies that make their license NFR after being sold are breaking the EU law?
According to the KVR hobby lawyers: Yes. Thing is, even when you'd take the company to court, and stand a chance that you win the case, i doubt it'd be worth it for a 15 year old plugin. And, i doubt that it'd be worth for the users as well, because, what happens is that the comapnies will raise their prices, when they all have to make their plugins resellable, without limitations, to make up for the double and triple support cases they might have to give. So, yes, thanks for fighting for our rights, you geniuses.
What about plugs like Serum that are not 15y old?
Resale value is shit because it becomes NFR.

I do think that 25€ license transfer that Xfer has is reasonable (developer has to live on something) but turning it to NFR is just.. fuckoff.
By having transfer fees maybe plugin prices wouldn't shoot up.

User avatar
Halma
KVRian
1007 posts since 9 Apr, 2012

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:47 pm

If you wanna have a serious answer: ask someone who is a lawyer who is specialized in those things...

For all other stuff: ask KVR...
Underground Music Production: Sound Design, Machine Funk, High Tech Soul

chk071
KVRAF
19420 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:49 pm

Ploki wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:45 pm
chk071 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:41 pm
Ploki wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:28 pm
hey, so companies that make their license NFR after being sold are breaking the EU law?
According to the KVR hobby lawyers: Yes. Thing is, even when you'd take the company to court, and stand a chance that you win the case, i doubt it'd be worth it for a 15 year old plugin. And, i doubt that it'd be worth for the users as well, because, what happens is that the comapnies will raise their prices, when they all have to make their plugins resellable, without limitations, to make up for the double and triple support cases they might have to give. So, yes, thanks for fighting for our rights, you geniuses.
What about plugs like Serum that are not 15y old?
Resale value is shit because it becomes NFR.

I do think that 25€ license transfer that Xfer has is reasonable (developer has to live on something) but turning it to NFR is just.. fuckoff.
By having transfer fees maybe plugin prices wouldn't shoot up.
That would be an option, yes. But, wouldn't that make the resale value more shit? ;)

Frankly, i think people should chill a bit. Nobody sold software back in the days. Why is there such a damn need for it now? I know people are jumpy nowadays, and make more impulse purchases, but, that's their own fault. I bought Sylenth1 from someone, and it became NFR. I don't regret it at all, because i knew exactly what i ended up with. It's really up to the consumer to act a bit more responsible. IMO.

That said, i sold quite a few plugins here. Simply because i can. And because it allowed me to have more budget for new stuff, when i happen to not like some plugins that much. Not a real MUST for me though.

Ploki
KVRian
729 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: So will reFX sue me if I use someone elses Vanguard serial?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:52 pm

I had Serum for good 3 years before I sold it, to budget for Hive. :D
Didn't sell all that much.
I appreciate cheap plugin snags tho. :D

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