GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

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gentleclockdivider
KVRAF
1956 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:55 am

Because grid is not capable of 1 unit feedback , this means that certain dx7 algoritms are impossible in the grid
Algoritm nr6 has a feedback loop that consists out of two operators ( 5,6 ) , operator 5 is feeding back into operator 6
Image
Which is impossible to re-create without adding the long delay module in the feedback loop , but this again introduces 6ms in the feedback loop and ofcourse alters the phase and the end result .
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odz
KVRist
164 posts since 3 Sep, 2016

Re: GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:05 am

To be specific, it introduces one buffer of delay, so on the order of 40-100ms, the visual indicator is lying to you. I've asked bitwig about this, and it's something you just have to live with.

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gentleclockdivider
KVRAF
1956 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:11 am

So no dx7 re-creations , well at least those (algoritms) that use mulitple operators in a feedback loop ( algo 4 and 6 )
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Noumena
KVRist
58 posts since 4 May, 2019

Re: GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:20 am

...yet

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gentleclockdivider
KVRAF
1956 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:32 am

Let's hope so
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x.iso
KVRist
343 posts since 27 Mar, 2019 from Russia

Re: GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:18 pm

I think inability to recreate all DX7 algos is irrelevant, there are VST for that. But it does imply limitations with any kind of synth you make that needs a feedback loop with more than 1 oscillator in chain. As solution I would propose to devs a setting for Grid to set oversampling: OFF, 2x and 4x. Maybe we need gritty aliasing too sometimes. Maybe in some non-audiorate sequencer type patches we don't need oversampling at all. At least I guess when they do MIDI Grid, it shouldn't have oversampling.

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
2770 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

Post Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:10 am

I can proof its possible, though the feedback for Algorithm 4 & 6 is realized with a delay, it still sounds very close. All other algorithms are fine, though we definitely need other envelopes. I created a separate thread for my GriDX7 project...
viewtopic.php?f=259&t=528533

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gentleclockdivider
KVRAF
1956 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

Post Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:17 am

It does not sound close if you introduce 20 ms into a feedback loop :roll:
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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
2770 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: GRID , shortcomings when it comes to phase modulation recreating the dx7

Post Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:27 pm

If you want to exactly mimic a DX7, get dexed. Its 6ms by the way. It sounds as it sounds and tweak it with your ears. In most Dx7 sounds you use the feedback to create noise, but FM feedback noise sounds pretty bad anyway and the Grid has better sounding noise generators...
Any complain about that feedback delay is theoretical mindfuck imo...

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