FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14966 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:11 am

becseigy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:41 am
The PA letter:
"Traditionally we are not sending out any loyalty vouchers in December, so the November vouchers will be the last ones of that type to go out this year. All future loyalty vouchers will have a minimum order value attached to them, as we are seeing way too many people (ab-)using them in ways that they were never intended for. We see users selling them, trading them, using multiple vouchers from various users in one account within a month, etc. Obviously, this is something we cannot accept.

We want our loyal customers to get some of their dream plugins at really affordable pricing, but we are not in the business of giving away multiple free plugins each month to users tricking the system. So, while all our future loyalty vouchers will of course still be worth every Cent they represent, they will be tied to a certain minimum spend in the future. The minimum spend for the popular $25 loyalty voucher for example will be $32, so you can even still use them to activate 2 or more used licenses you may buy somewhere, or for any $39.99 deal and more. We imagine this won't be the most popular decision we are presenting here, but we hope you will understand."

So, you can sell/trade/gift your voucher but there will be a minimum spend when you purchase something using the voucher.
This is a conclusion I don't draw from what they wrote, though I may be wrong.

In the first paragraph they suggest that dealing in vouchers is unacceptable. And in the second they confirm that loyalty vouchers will still be worth the same, albeit with a minimum spend.

Maybe you are more versed in Dirk-speak than I :scared:

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Calenberger
KVRist
310 posts since 8 Sep, 2019 from Calenberg

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:23 am

Dirk-think is:
As long as somebody spend some money on my stuff I'm totally relaxed who the f**k this guy is. Rather earning revenue from a sold voucher than no revenue from the original recipient.
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becseigy
KVRist
87 posts since 31 May, 2018

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:26 am

It's simple: the business is business.
For PA unacceptable the fact that they do not see a single cent from this loyalty-voucher trading business. And that's totally understandable.

So, in the future if you want pay for a single transfer fee (20$), you must buy something at least for 12$ (if you want using a voucher). But what can you buy in the PA store for 12$?

Buying a 25$ voucher for paying a transfer fee is not worth anymore if you don't want buying something else.

But the company (in general) can't prohibit you from giving away or selling your property (at least in the European Union).

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14966 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:15 am

Calenberger wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:23 am
Dirk-think is:
As long as somebody spend some money on my stuff I'm totally relaxed who the f**k this guy is. Rather earning revenue from a sold voucher than no revenue from the original recipient.
You may be right, but do you have that confirmed? It is not so clear from what is written.

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14966 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:15 am

becseigy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:26 am
It's simple: the business is business.
For PA unacceptable the fact that they do not see a single cent from this loyalty-voucher trading business. And that's totally understandable.

So, in the future if you want pay for a single transfer fee (20$), you must buy something at least for 12$ (if you want using a voucher). But what can you buy in the PA store for 12$?

Buying a 25$ voucher for paying a transfer fee is not worth anymore if you don't want buying something else.

But the company (in general) can't prohibit you from giving away or selling your property (at least in the European Union).
You may be right, but do you have that confirmed? It is not so clear from what is written.

becseigy
KVRist
87 posts since 31 May, 2018

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:36 am

Which word from the letter is not clear?

1. PA: "The minimum spend for the popular $25 loyalty voucher for example will be $32 (...) so you can even still use them (...) to activate (...) used licenses"

2. The vouchers that PA sends to costumers will be the property of the customer and no more in the possession of the party that sent (in that case, it doesn't matter whether you paid for it or not). Like the sofware license you bought. No one can stop you from giving it away, selling it. Even if the company terms and conditions not allow for you.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2012 ... cant.shtml

But the terms of use of the voucher may be changed by the company. That's what the PA did now.
From their point of view, very correctly anyway.

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14966 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:50 am

becseigy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:36 am
Which word from the letter is not clear?

1. PA: "The minimum spend for the popular $25 loyalty voucher for example will be $32 (...) so you can even still use them (...) to activate (...) used licenses"
Yes! They can still be used to activate used licenses. For example I can buy two plugins from the op, and use my current $25 loyalty voucher against the activation cost, which in this case would leave me needing to pay the remaining $15 (At least, that's my understanding). That's very different from me buying plugins from the op, and he/she sweetening the deal by giving me their voucher to use as activation. This is the point that is not clear from the post, as they seem to suggest all trading of vouchers is unacceptable. This is the point I'm contending.
becseigy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:36 am
2. The vouchers that PA sends to costumers will be the property of the customer and no more in the possession of the party that sent (in that case, it doesn't matter whether you paid for it or not). Like the sofware license you bought. No one can stop you from giving it away, selling it. Even if the company terms and conditions not allow for you.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2012 ... cant.shtml

But the terms of use of the voucher may be changed by the company. That's what the PA did now.
Nobody is saying that software cannot be sold. What is up for argument is whether loyalty vouchers can be traded, sold or gifted.

becseigy
KVRist
87 posts since 31 May, 2018

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:02 am

If the seller gives you candy or a voucher it's his business. Is his property.

The keyword is not "software" or "voucher". It can be anything. Book, car, cat, dog etc. The keyword is "property". And the voucher is your own property. And the company cannot prohibit the sale/gift etc. your property.
That's what I' am saying.

The company can change the terms of use of the voucher. And that is the risk of the voucher buyer.

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14966 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:18 am

becseigy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:02 am
If the seller gives you candy or a voucher it's his business. Is his property.

The keyword is not "software" or "voucher". It can be anything. Book, car, cat, dog etc. The keyword is "property". And the voucher is your own property. And the company cannot prohibit the sale/gift etc. your property.
That's what I' am saying.

The company can change the terms of use of the voucher. And that is the risk of the voucher buyer
Whatever the law says, and what might be appropriate conduct are perhaps two different issues.

If it is the case that PA don't want the selling of loyalty vouchers, isn't that enough??

Loyalty vouchers are given out most months of the year, and are usable against already heavily-discounted products (Normally, companies don't allow combinations of promotions). This has allowed many of us to enjoy high-quality plugins for a few dollars. And even the new minimum spend makes it possible for the patient to grab all of their catalogue at extremely low prices.

becseigy
KVRist
87 posts since 31 May, 2018

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:28 am

I agree, loyalty voucher is a good thing.
But why is a personal voucher not personal? Why is the voucher not connected to the account? Thus, only the person to whom it is intended could actually use it. That would be desirable in my opinion. But the current version of the voucher system might be better for the PA. And this is where the business begins...

And don't forget: this phenomenon has recently intensified as the company switched to a subscription system. Now everyone is getting rid of their plugins, while others are buying vouchers to pay the transaction fees. Maybe the transaction fee for a while would be lower... But that is also business (to collect money for something already sold).

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Calenberger
KVRist
310 posts since 8 Sep, 2019 from Calenberg

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:04 am

Just another bump for OP ani-mator! :tu:
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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14966 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:07 am

becseigy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:28 am
But why is a personal voucher not personal? Why is the voucher not connected to the account? Thus, only the person to whom it is intended could actually use it. That would be desirable in my opinion.
I agree that they should tie vouchers to accounts. But we still can't agree whether they are allowing trading, or not ;) Maybe they will have to eventually connect the codes...Maybe they already have.
becseigy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:28 am
But the current version of the voucher system might be better for the PA. And this is where the business begins...
I guess none of us know what their bottom-line shows, with regard to what constitutes good business for them. Clearly, something has changed; enough for them to tighten things up a little

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Calenberger
KVRist
310 posts since 8 Sep, 2019 from Calenberg

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:10 am

Wonder why you're so missionary on this issue...
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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14966 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:23 am

Calenberger wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:10 am
Wonder why you're so missionary on this issue...
It's about fairness, and the fact that I believe that the loyalty should go both ways.

So many of us have amassed a little (or large) collection of top-quality plugins from PA, at insane prices (Many have grabbed a lot of gear for free). Even when they've already heavily-discounted plugins, they still allow users to stack loyalty discounts on top (Combining promotions is not something that most companies would allow).

Up until now, it seems like trading, selling and gifting loyalty vouchers has been sanctioned. However, now it seems that PA have decided it's being abused, and have expressed their concerns. Of course, In their inimitable style, they've not really made things that clear. But unclear doesn't mean all-clear.

You ask why I'm being so "missionary". I'm wondering why nobody else seems to give a shit :shrug:

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Calenberger
KVRist
310 posts since 8 Sep, 2019 from Calenberg

Re: FS -Plugin Alliance. 2 for £15 3 for £20 + November £25 loyalty Voucher

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:39 am

Because it's Dirk we're talking about. That simple!
He doesn't even know how to spell FAIR correctly...
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