Learning scales/chords online? music school?

[jancivil]

A triad = 3, a seven note scale = 7. "the chord itself when built is your scale" is true only with these as the same set.
And is generally conceived the other way around.

[Stamped Records]

Ok, I'm not perfectly correct but I get the logic. I think though, what I'm getting at is that the structure of music only really begins to become clear with chord building, or, when the chords in use can be named thereafter. You see the relationships between the chords and how to falsify those relationships and create something that moves forward, leaving and arriving, leaving and arriving, giving the appearance of an overall longer journey made from taking shorter journeys, paths, directions (motifs I guess) and adding them all together.

[Stamped Records]

Since the topic is dead and I'm not hijacking it, I thought of a situation whereby there is 3 major chords a 3rd apart (i.e. AM, CM, EM) is between the 3rd, 5th and 7th degrees of the harmonic minor scale. The F#m is a nice addition to the progression.

[Forgotten]

Ok, I'm not perfectly correct but I get the logic. I think though, what I'm getting at is that the structure of music only really begins to become clear with chord building

Not really. What about modal forms of music?

[Stamped Records]

The op isn't about modal music.

[Forgotten]

The op isn't about modal music.

He asked for help with “scales/chords”, so I’m assuming general responses would be appropriate.

[vurt]

i just felt the cries of a million theremin players who then went silent

[jancivil]

the modes are used as scales in music I wouldn't characterize as modal, some not at all.
The temptation to build triads on them arose and some people might like better information.

"what I'm getting at is that the structure of music..."?

Was YOUR goalpost, "the structure of music only really begins to become clear with chord building"

The op isn't about modal music.

You're wrong on two counts, just plain untrue statements, which is unchanged by shifting goalposts about.
Chords are not parents to scales; there are significant musical structures which are not made clear by chords, cf., not even a feature of Indian classical.

[Caine123]

thx so much for the replies!
e.g. when i hear a track like this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzon1tLVML8

i wanna identify the key/scale which is played to know "ahh hey let try this same melody", i used apart from my ears ;D) Hornets Songkey plugin but then the question is when i get an example F#Minor, then i check schale/chordsfinder and it shows, phrygian, harmonic minor, hamronic major, Lydian etc. then i totally dont understand which of this is F#Minor for example .

[Forgotten]

Harmonic analysis isn’t always straightforward. Sometimes it’s pretty easy to determine key, but sometimes a basic analysis might give you more than one potential key, or you might have a potential key with one or more chromatic notes thrown in.

I’m not sure how well any of this software will work, and I would assume that its accuracy wold be based on the simplicity of the music. By far the most accurate way to determine the correct key is to pick out the notes by ear and know enough theory to explain the presence of each note.

[jancivil]

from what you wrote, the plugins are doing more harm than good. An algorithm's sense of the use and quality of modes is suspect even if it can be relied on for the notes, and chances seem very high the modes it arrives at are a mistake.

[Forgotten]

Yes, the results aren’t helping you if they’re inconsistent and if you don’t understand how those algorithms arrived at those results.

Maybe you’re looking for instant answers when you really should be taking things a step at a time. There are probably thousands of books that can give you a good grounding in theory and harmonic analysis, but as with all things, you have to practice applying that theory to learn how to accurately determine the key of a piece of music, and recognize modulations and dissonance for what they are.

[Stamped Records]

the modes are used as scales in music I wouldn't characterize as modal, some not at all.
The temptation to build triads on them arose and some people might like better information.

"what I'm getting at is that the structure of music..."?

Was YOUR goalpost, "the structure of music only really begins to become clear with chord building"

The op isn't about modal music.

You're wrong on two counts, just plain untrue statements, which is unchanged by shifting goalposts about.
Chords are not parents to scales; there are significant musical structures which are not made clear by chords, cf., not even a feature of Indian classical.

What I am saying is that I find it better to think about chords and intervals than scales.

Sometimes what I do doesn't land in a key, and there is the odd time that there is no tonic per-sé.

If I were to use a scale, I wouldn't find this music.

As part of my progress, I seek to find things that are unusual or a little odd. In looking for the oddness I've found a method beyond scales that suits my way of thinking.

[Forgotten]

What I am saying is that I find it better to think about chords and intervals than scales.

Sometimes what I do doesn't land in a key, and there is the odd time that there is no tonic per-sé.

If I were to use a scale, I wouldn't find this music.

As part of my progress, I seek to find things that are unusual or a little odd. In looking for the oddness I've found a method beyond scales that suits my way of thinking.

How does something you do not have a key? I think your way of thinking comes from an incomplete understanding of theory, particularly when I hear you say that if you use scales you wouldn’t find your music.

You state that you use chords, so you’re based in Western harmony, so you should be able to analyze your music, determine keys, modes, modulation, explain accidentals, identify extended chords, etc.

[Stamped Records]

Well, as I stated already, I look for things that are unusual, but not too unusual. I look 'slightly' beyond the scale, not always, but it is one of my methods/starting points for writing something. The interesting things that I find when I do this are beyond the scale so obviously sticking to a scale is going to inhibit the things I find when I work this way. Whereas, thinking in terms of chords and intervals doesn't place this restriction on you. Thinking in terms of chords and intervals doesn't inhibit your ability to use a scale, but a scale does affect your ability to look beyond the scale. I mean, a scale in the right hands is a key, in the wrong hands, it is a list of notes.

Take a really simple example; You start a song with a G, then you move to a C chord and at this moment in time our ears are telling us that C is our tonic. But, if we play a D after the C, followed by G, the music tells us we are in the key of G. Had I chosen my 'scale' as C, I would never reach the point where I could drop the D chord to shift perspective to G.

If I'd played Gm, C, well, because I'm familiar with the pattern of chords and intervals in the scales, I see root movement of a 5th from a minor to a major chord. Immediate instincts point to this being two chords in a ii,V,I sequence, so I know I can play with this for a while and add an F for a twist later on, or, relative that b**ch up and use a Dm.

You could say that in these two examples, the key was the key from the beginning, but I prefer to leave the key undecided until the music finds it's own key.

Essentially, I'm just an advocate of the Circle of 5ths, and it's not really concerned with scales.