Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

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linkstate
KVRist
82 posts since 1 Aug, 2008

Post Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:44 pm

I experienced (feel it) it also (I am here from v1.1). I dont wanna post it especially because this behavioural related insults. SRC should be fixed and I reported it already to tech support. I even found opensource quality src library. Then we can investigate further what is causing this - maybe antialiasing filters in sampler, engine?... Everytime there a is space to improve especially if v1 was better in at least src quality tests. Basics like smoother dynamics (comp, transient shaper,...), better "analog" modeled filters (minimum phase eq, analog distorting oversampled filters), automatic dithering,... whatever is necessary to improve and others (other DAWs) are using.

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loungepanda
KVRist
388 posts since 27 Apr, 2013 from Denmark

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:39 am

But again, what are we supposed to do with those theories? There may have been changes done to the sampler that could've effected the sound marginally, but we won't know if there isn't any tangible evidence to support these claims.

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antic604
KVRAF
2914 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:43 am

loungepanda wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:39 am
But again, what are we supposed to do with those theories? There may have been changes done to the sampler that could've effected the sound marginally, but we won't know if there isn't any tangible evidence to support these claims.
Perhpas sit down & write great music? I've heard Bitwig stuff released professionally and it sounds just like anything else and any diffeences could be attributed to artistic or stylistic choice. Not at all "low an muffled".

If people can't write good music because of imperfect SRC algorithm (if that's even the case) then I don't know how to comment it...
Bitwig 3 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - Psytrance in Bitwig Studio tutorial

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steve.lindqvist
KVRist
84 posts since 20 Jan, 2019

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:40 am

It could be the filter(!) of the sampler (cp. Sample One in Studio One) otherwise Bitwig doesn't alter the sound in a negative way (I did various null tests against Live, Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools, Studio One). SRC, auto fades, (wrong) stretching algos, bad samples, low standard fader volume, broken plugin formats, modified resampling algo, velocity or other hidden modulations, wrong grid settings (timing), even psychological / visual reasons, etc., all user errors who can lead to an altered or muffled sound without knowing the cause of it.

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JHernandez
KVRian
550 posts since 7 Dec, 2017

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:00 am

Basically evidence or GTFO. :wink:
-JH

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lunardigs
KVRist
435 posts since 6 Jun, 2016 from Austin, Texas

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:47 am

antic604 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:43 am
loungepanda wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:39 am
But again, what are we supposed to do with those theories? There may have been changes done to the sampler that could've effected the sound marginally, but we won't know if there isn't any tangible evidence to support these claims.
Perhpas sit down & write great music? I've heard Bitwig stuff released professionally and it sounds just like anything else and any diffeences could be attributed to artistic or stylistic choice. Not at all "low an muffled".

If people can't write good music because of imperfect SRC algorithm (if that's even the case) then I don't know how to comment it...
Agreed! Keep writing music. The devs will keep writing code ...
If your material doesn't sound right, coming from Ableton to BWS, keep that material in Ableton. Use BWS for what you think it's good for and vice versa.

If we're in a position where we can't affect the software we adopt, we simply have to make the most of it. BWS isn't/won't be open source, and even if it were, I'm not sure I could alter it anyway as I'm not an adept programmer. This is the position we're in.

Though, what you do have explicit control of is your music/compositions. Focus on that and hop trains should a better piece of software come along--which Bitwig should vigilantly be concerned for; retaining loyalty is theirs job, not ours.

linkstate
KVRist
82 posts since 1 Aug, 2008

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:55 am

And bad SRC that went from quite OK to terrible is no evidence? It sounds to me as phase coherence (transient response, timing) problems. We should test latest versions.
Last edited by linkstate on Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

linkstate
KVRist
82 posts since 1 Aug, 2008

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:58 am

Also I know that at some point in version 2 they changed transient devices for "better" action (see changelog for v2) but I never heard it as better just differrent. I cannot decide at that time if it was better.

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lunardigs
KVRist
435 posts since 6 Jun, 2016 from Austin, Texas

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:52 pm

Remember too, they introduced all the Elastique stuff, etc. circa V2, if I'm not mistaken.

linkstate
KVRist
82 posts since 1 Aug, 2008

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:54 pm

First tests:
1) put audio in raw gain to max 18 than bounce than lower it by 18 - put it against null test -> result: it is not null -135 (almost null) In 32bit bus and processing it should be null?.

2) with same procedure as above put new device on each track and apply eq first +1 than second -1 -> results are little bit worse than simplest first test
- if you render Bitwig renders to Repitch mode and it should be ok if you dont move with BPM but is not the case it "very differrent" signal ->. maybe this is most prominent damage you can gain during editing audio.

I know rule the least editing the better but try this in modern DAWs and you can abuse processing for sound design as there is minimum of damage you can do. For example see Mr. Bills masterclass here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt93Sq24M

Propose:
I love Bitwig but developers should also consider quality of their product vs new functions "just for showing" on shows. I appreciate things like latest optimizations (in loading) sometimes even more than new things. I would rather see perfect musical analog emulating filters (zero delay feedback, drive, without aliasing and decramped eqs) - minimum phase or whatever technique, 64bit processing devices/oversampling/dynamic dithering or other smart techniques where it is needed to bring the reallness of virtual instruments sounds up. Smoother dynamics...

It is big opportunity "miss" to not to bring modulation to next level - see new cable guys shaper box (GUI and musical usefullness) and it will not cost devs many man days. How is possible that differrent transient shapers sounds differrent? Maybe because of some musical aplication of mathematics? Try free alternative Transpire - smooth musical shaping even in extreme settings - try this in Bitwig... Another missed opportunity. With quality transient device you can build upon it differrent dynamic devices - distortion devices. Count new transparent filters and buil more proffesional plugins (devices) in Bitwig. We have multiband split but with not so good filters another example of building block that should be as good as it is possible. I can continue with other examples.

linkstate
KVRist
82 posts since 1 Aug, 2008

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:46 pm

So evident bugs so far (I will bug hunt further):
- bad SRC
- repitch mode does not sound same as raw if speed is untouched (I switch to raw every bounce :( ) - in spectrum analyzer it shows differences in very high spectrum. Maybe this cause of dulling sound.
- eqs looked like proportional but they are not. Tracks does not null in reversed phase tracks aka null test for opposite settings of eq moves (even 1db up/down). I dont know if it is intentionally that way but proportional eq are great tools for further user (dynamic eq, pre/post eq for other fxs,...)

linkstate
KVRist
82 posts since 1 Aug, 2008

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:35 am

Also read about native eq here:
viewtopic.php?f=259&t=533782
Another possible "duller" of sound.

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JHernandez
KVRian
550 posts since 7 Dec, 2017

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:30 am

Sorry, I can’t understand most of what you’re saying. Something about missed opportunities, “proportional” EQ null tests and what looks like a lot of feature requests?

Did you record your findings? That would help.

Bad SRC? What I drag in sounds identical to the original file to me. Maybe it’s not technically, idk. I guess it should be technically as good as possible without dragging the project to a crawl (where applicable) but if I can’t hear it then it’s not an issue for me. Are there SRC test results for Bitwig 3.x.x anywhere? Just curious to see some considering the changes between versions so far.
-JH

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loungepanda
KVRist
388 posts since 27 Apr, 2013 from Denmark

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:53 am

I'm confused as well.

This isn't how you do analysis, linkstate. You still haven't even explained what it is you think is wrong. Those tests don't make any sense either. Why are you doing null test? What does that have to do with samplerate conversion or filter slopes?

Biscotto
KVRist
321 posts since 29 Jun, 2009

Re: Low and muffled sound in Bitwig???

Post Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:11 pm

I think part of the test is that he’s trying to achieve in BWS what Mr.Bill is doing at 15:45 with the audio export/import in Ableton.
Doesn’t work in BWS as much as I can tell.
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