Acid Loops: Still relevant?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4290 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
Is it something that is still important in the market? I remember it used to be the case around 10 years ago, but nowadays I'm not so sure. Looking at majors sample companies and I see either plain wav loops, synth presets and even Apple Loops, but Acid Loops seem to have disappeared.
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- KVRAF
- 2289 posts since 5 Jan, 2006
AFAIK most developers these days offers loops in 3 main formats: plain WAV, Rex and Apple loops. Most DAWs now can easily stretch any audio file, so in most cases Acid loops are no longer needed. But they can still be useful in applications that support them. For example, UVI Workstation won't auto stretch plain wav loops ,only acidized wavs. Sforzando too.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4290 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
I think Cubase, FL Studio and Ableton Live loads acid wavs, but I'm not 100% sure.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4290 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
Good observations! For UVI Workstation, REX can also be used. I don't know for Sforzando, but I doubt many people use it to mix loops (or it's a very niche use). I think I'll go with the 3 main formats you mentioned, it really makes sense.PTV wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:23 pm AFAIK most developers these days offers loops in 3 main formats: plain WAV, Rex and Apple loops. Most DAWs now can easily stretch any audio file, so in most cases Acid loops are no longer needed. But they can still be useful in applications that support them. For example, UVI Workstation won't auto stretch plain wav loops ,only acidized wavs. Sforzando too.
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- KVRAF
- 11001 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere
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- KVRian
- 972 posts since 22 Apr, 2004 from Switzerland
Quote from the internet:
You are probably using them when you are using wav files from sample packs.Acid Loops are royalty free wav loops. They contain metadata that allow userers to change tempo and key. Acid Loops are Universal format and work in Acid, Pro Tools, Cubase, FL Studio, Ableton LIve, Sonar and all Universal Audio Wav Format devices.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4290 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
I buy a lot of sample packs and the ones I've checked are just basic wav files without metadata. The only website that still acidized its wav files is Soundtrackloops.com. I might be wrong though since their newer releases don't mention anything about acid loops.Blaster wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:59 pm Quote from the internet:You are probably using them when you are using wav files from sample packs.Acid Loops are royalty free wav loops. They contain metadata that allow userers to change tempo and key. Acid Loops are Universal format and work in Acid, Pro Tools, Cubase, FL Studio, Ableton LIve, Sonar and all Universal Audio Wav Format devices.
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- KVRAF
- 2008 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo
Loop Loft are acidized. They stopped declaring it a while ago, but they still are. They declare AIFF are Apple Loops though.SampleScience wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:11 pm I buy a lot of sample packs and the ones I've checked are just basic wav files without metadata. The only website that still acidized its wav files is Soundtrackloops.com. I might be wrong though since their newer releases don't mention anything about acid loops.
Tracktion's Imagina loops are also acidized, especially since they are often in non-4/4 time signatures.
Many EDM-oriented developers have no metadata. They tend to put tempo (and key) in the filename or containing folder. Cymatics (which is garbage anyway), Echo Sound Works, Splice, Riemann, etc.. all do this. Sample Magic, Touch Loops, WA Production does the tempo in filename but also has tempo metadata. I'm not gonna name names but some also put tempo metadata that is INCORRECT. It's likely a default in whatever tools they are using. And it gets worse when you get to certain outfits trying to make a quick buck.
To be honest, they (collective they) lowered expectations of what should be in sample packs. It takes time and energy to properly tag things and they need to churn sample pack after pack, so organizing samples is the customer's problem. And now we have tools like Sononym, XLN XO, Atlas, ADSR Sample Manager, etc., to address that.
That's why I'll opt for the rex2 files if they're available. The metadata is more or less guaranteed to be there, incorrect metadata is less likely to be there, and I can database that in my tools and restrict searches to a specific range. All the metadata-less ones, I convert the tags and key from the filenames if they're worth it. I've culled increasingly more useless garbage (if it's harder for me to find it, it's clogging my databases) the past couple years, and the properly tagged ones remain.
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Obsolete236871 Obsolete236871 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=236871
- Banned
- 821 posts since 4 Aug, 2010
Skimming through this thread it seems that REX2 files are the way to go, right?
Also: why should a sample developer support Apple Loops? What are the advantages of Apple Loops and for what usage scenario / audio software are they intended?
Also: why should a sample developer support Apple Loops? What are the advantages of Apple Loops and for what usage scenario / audio software are they intended?
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- KVRAF
- 2008 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo
When it comes to audio files, same thing as acidized WAVs. Metadata like tempo, bpm, etc.. Just in AIFF format. But apple loops also encompass MIDI and some other formats.
As for what software, Garage Band and the rest of the apple music ecosystem. But some apps on other platforms can read the metadata too. Metadata benefits everyone.
And no, I would not recommend developers concentrate on rex2 alone. It is a proprietary system while acid metadata is de facto open. I am using rex2 because as a consumer it is the rational choice when a WAV version is metadata deficient. I would much prefer open formats have the metadata.
Also, rex2 defines slice regions, the usage is somewhat more involved than plain old WAVs. The metadata is a side-effect of that. For one-shots I don't mind WAVs, but acidized WAVs would declare it as one-shots as opposed to loops. Which some of the tools I mention try to determine that algorithmically.
As for what software, Garage Band and the rest of the apple music ecosystem. But some apps on other platforms can read the metadata too. Metadata benefits everyone.
And no, I would not recommend developers concentrate on rex2 alone. It is a proprietary system while acid metadata is de facto open. I am using rex2 because as a consumer it is the rational choice when a WAV version is metadata deficient. I would much prefer open formats have the metadata.
Also, rex2 defines slice regions, the usage is somewhat more involved than plain old WAVs. The metadata is a side-effect of that. For one-shots I don't mind WAVs, but acidized WAVs would declare it as one-shots as opposed to loops. Which some of the tools I mention try to determine that algorithmically.
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Obsolete236871 Obsolete236871 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=236871
- Banned
- 821 posts since 4 Aug, 2010
Thanks for the insights!
A few additional questions for better comprehension (not trying to take over the thread from OP lol):
- both the creation of acidiced .wav files and of rex2 files require proprietary software, right?
- as a sample content provider you basically want to offer rex2 files to make it easier for the consumer to use the samples, even though in theory plain .wav files with BPM and key data contained in the file name would be perfectly sufficient for most purposes, since most modern DAWs allow import, looping, synching / time stretching etc. of plain .wav files?
- so there is currently no non-proprietary, open audio format that contains the sort of metadata that is covered by the rex2 and ACID formats and which would be useful in a music creation context?
A few additional questions for better comprehension (not trying to take over the thread from OP lol):
- both the creation of acidiced .wav files and of rex2 files require proprietary software, right?
- as a sample content provider you basically want to offer rex2 files to make it easier for the consumer to use the samples, even though in theory plain .wav files with BPM and key data contained in the file name would be perfectly sufficient for most purposes, since most modern DAWs allow import, looping, synching / time stretching etc. of plain .wav files?
- so there is currently no non-proprietary, open audio format that contains the sort of metadata that is covered by the rex2 and ACID formats and which would be useful in a music creation context?
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- KVRAF
- 2008 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo
To create rex2 files, you need Propellerheads Recycle. I think there may be a way to use Dr. Rex inside Reason to create rex2 anyone can use but that is also proprietary to Propellerhead.
To create acidized WAV files, you could use ACID, but any other software can write the appropriate tags (WAV chunk) and provide a nice interface for it. I've been using Sound Forge for this forever but I am certain many others, possibly free (Audacity?) can do it too. If you're a pro sample developer you certainly have a pro audio editing tool like that.
rex2 files can be sliced. This is advantageous for drum loops in particular, because instead of time stretching them, they are played at the normal rate, then when the slice ends there is silence until the next slice is supposed to be played. This retains transients. Similarly, if they are sped up, slices can then overlap (or be choked), but transients aren't smooshed.
So if you're using a DAW that can ingest rex2, you just drag and drop the loop in, it'll conform to the tempo and arrange the slices accordingly. If you change the tempo, the slices rearrange accordingly. It'll always sound crisp no matter what.
If you are given a wav file, you will need some kind of tool to do that in a DAW. There are automatic beat slicer tools like Air Transfuser and FXpansion Geist. Or you can do it manually, chop the loop up into hits and maybe throw it into a sampler. But that's a lot of work. Some sampler algorithms are smart enough to know what to do with drum loops, but the results vary.
There is no open standard for something like rex2. rex2 is encrypted and is resistant to reverse engineering. Like I said earlier, acid is de facto open. Whoever owns the rights can't prevent others from writing the metadata if they wanted to. Not saying they do, they benefit from the free advertising IMO.
But that's why I'd like to call it metadata in general. Then get specific as to what kind of metadata musicians would be looking to get with these files. Which is basically what acid introduced ages ago out of necessity.
To create acidized WAV files, you could use ACID, but any other software can write the appropriate tags (WAV chunk) and provide a nice interface for it. I've been using Sound Forge for this forever but I am certain many others, possibly free (Audacity?) can do it too. If you're a pro sample developer you certainly have a pro audio editing tool like that.
rex2 files can be sliced. This is advantageous for drum loops in particular, because instead of time stretching them, they are played at the normal rate, then when the slice ends there is silence until the next slice is supposed to be played. This retains transients. Similarly, if they are sped up, slices can then overlap (or be choked), but transients aren't smooshed.
So if you're using a DAW that can ingest rex2, you just drag and drop the loop in, it'll conform to the tempo and arrange the slices accordingly. If you change the tempo, the slices rearrange accordingly. It'll always sound crisp no matter what.
If you are given a wav file, you will need some kind of tool to do that in a DAW. There are automatic beat slicer tools like Air Transfuser and FXpansion Geist. Or you can do it manually, chop the loop up into hits and maybe throw it into a sampler. But that's a lot of work. Some sampler algorithms are smart enough to know what to do with drum loops, but the results vary.
There is no open standard for something like rex2. rex2 is encrypted and is resistant to reverse engineering. Like I said earlier, acid is de facto open. Whoever owns the rights can't prevent others from writing the metadata if they wanted to. Not saying they do, they benefit from the free advertising IMO.
But that's why I'd like to call it metadata in general. Then get specific as to what kind of metadata musicians would be looking to get with these files. Which is basically what acid introduced ages ago out of necessity.
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- KVRAF
- 2289 posts since 5 Jan, 2006
Only ACID can make a truely ACIDized WAV:
"...ACID files are WAVE files with two extra chunks in them; one defining beats and time signature, the other defining the markers.
...Somewhere along the way the moniker "ACIDising WAVE files" got spread around. This is largely misunderstood phrase, but it mainly was meant to describe the process of running the sample through ACID's beat detection algorithm to achieve the markers to notate the transients.
...Part of this is also made confusing by Sound Forge itself, which has a ACID properties page. This only writes the first ACID chunk, not the second (the marker chunk, the most important).
OK, so let's say it: ACID files as described by us are WAVE files with the two ACID chunks in them."
http://www.chickensys.com/translator/do ... efile.html
"...ACID files are WAVE files with two extra chunks in them; one defining beats and time signature, the other defining the markers.
...Somewhere along the way the moniker "ACIDising WAVE files" got spread around. This is largely misunderstood phrase, but it mainly was meant to describe the process of running the sample through ACID's beat detection algorithm to achieve the markers to notate the transients.
...Part of this is also made confusing by Sound Forge itself, which has a ACID properties page. This only writes the first ACID chunk, not the second (the marker chunk, the most important).
OK, so let's say it: ACID files as described by us are WAVE files with the two ACID chunks in them."
http://www.chickensys.com/translator/do ... efile.html
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- KVRAF
- 2103 posts since 22 Aug, 2006
If I am not mistaken FL Studio can create ACIDized WAV files. I have never checked the actual WAV file chunks. Don't know how to check that either. There are options available such as Save tempo information, Save marker info while rendering to WAV files. In earlier versions it used to say something like "Save ACIDized info" but in v20 it's as I mentioned earlier.
