Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

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Ksamphos
KVRer
14 posts since 8 Feb, 2019

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:45 pm

Hi,
Im starting to record compositions with vsts.
Heres a little Waltz.
Any suggestion are welcome.

I used:
Piano Ivory German concert d
Bayan ilya efimov
Guitar ilya efimov

https://soundcloud.com/user-764724242/w ... ion-guitar

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Benedict
KVRAF
3216 posts since 5 Mar, 2004 from Gold Coast Australia

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:32 pm

I'm going to be direct and say that the Voicing is not very good. This happens as people start to use samples (or even synths overall) as they forget that instruments are not static, they move and slur all over the place and just using a sound called "piano" or "guitar" won't actually deliver a piano or guitar-like performance.

It is not the samples - altho some are easier to do this with than others but starting with basic ones is great as it makes you learn the real stuff which is voicing, intonation and articulations so that the performance flows & speaks like it is "real". By real I don't mean "is that piano", but delivers the real message so it feels organic - or real with itself. Dracula isn't real real but we accept him as real in films because he makes sense within himself.

Here is one I give to students. There are several parts and they use the same instruments from part to part (with 1-2 new sounds in each new section). The object of the lesson is to turn the MIDI Notes into a stream of performances that deliver the unique feel of each section despite the sounds being the same. If you listen closely you can hear how the sounds change, how they speak as their role changes. This is some Automation and some Mixing but the idea is that a student can't pass until each section tells the right story at the instrument level alone. Then they can mix it.

https://soundcloud.com/benedictroff-mar ... g-tutorial

:-)

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thejonsolo
KVRAF
2404 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Charleston, SC

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:14 pm

Nice composition. A few timing issues, but really good for an early start in the VST world. Looking forward to hearing more.

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15391 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:34 am

Like thejohnsolo, I like the composition. And that's a very good place to start.

However, like Benedict noted, the expression is definitely lacking.

I know these Efimov libraries (About to buy the Nylon, myself) can offer tons of tasty movement/expression, if you take the time to work with them. Don't get too bogged down in it from the start. Choose a couple of articulations to work with, that provide some contrast/movement. And start to incorporate the rest, when you are able.

But more than that, I'd definitely advise to watch various Youtube videos of people actually playing these instruments. Watch how they move, swing, sway and lilt with their instruments. See how that helps with phrasing, emotion/feel. Work out which parts are softer, which are accented etc. There is much that you can do with just some basic velocity and mod-wheel expression that will add enough ebb and flow to produce a much more lyrical, and enjoyable result. With a better understanding of the interplay between these elements, your performances/recordings will vastly improve.

And not to pile on too much at once, but a little attention paid to learning simple mixing techniques (Even just small eq moves, levelling and panning), could really help clean up the sound, and make things a lot clearer.

Ksamphos
KVRer
14 posts since 8 Feb, 2019

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:43 pm

Thank you, im meditating those days about your answers.
Im posting now after recording a piece of the Waltz but this time while switching the reverb fader of efimov's bayan with the notebook touchpad. I feel It became a bit more interesting and realistic.

This is the recording with efimov's bayan being played while moving Reverb:

https://soundcloud.com/user-764724242/v ... bayan-test

This recording i posted for mistake, its another Waltz with Spitfire violin being played with little feedback (due to slow computer)
https://soundcloud.com/user-764724242/v ... -e-violino

Is this kind of thing that is missing? (I refer to the bayan recording compared to the previous one) Maybe i need more equipment? Im thinking on buying a simple fader control, might be a good Idea?
Thanks, my computer got so slow recently that im using the smartphone all the time, but its difficult to write much here.
Last edited by Ksamphos on Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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thejonsolo
KVRAF
2404 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Charleston, SC

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:01 pm

I am not a fan of bringing reverb in and out. The performance would have been better with a reverb in place. The dynamics of the violin were enough, and it comes down to performance and timing.

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15391 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:09 am

Ksamphos wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:43 pm
Thank you, im meditating those days about your answers.
Im posting now after recording a piece of the Waltz but [1]this time while switching the reverb fader of efimov's bayan with the notebook touchpad. I feel It became a bit more interesting and realistic.

https://soundcloud.com/user-764724242/v ... -e-violino

Is this kind of thing that is missing? Maybe i need more equipment? [2]Im thinking on buying a simple fader control, might be a good Idea?
Thanks, [3]my computer got so slow recently that im using the smartphone all the time, but its difficult to write much here.
[1] Not sure why you feel that turning reverb on and off would add realism. Consider that reverb is used to create/define a space in which the instruments reside. By turning the reverb on and off, it's as if you are constantly wheeling your players back and forth between a concert hall and an anechoic chamber.

[2] A fader-bank (Korg NanoControl2 is quite popular) can definitely be a good addition if you are looking to add performance expression. But if your keyboard has a mod-wheel, you're already off to a good start. Also, don't forget that you can use automation, after-the-fact, to sculpt a more expressive performance. But in this case it did seem fine as it was.

[3] This is something to definitely look into getting sorted. With these simple pieces, I'd imagine it's not a case of the computer being under-powered. Maybe the had-drive is getting too full. Maybe you have too much running in the background while composing.

All that said, I quite enjoyed the second piece. Felt a bit erratic in places, and ended too abruptly. But good enough to build from.

Ksamphos
KVRer
14 posts since 8 Feb, 2019

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:17 am

thejonsolo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:01 pm
I am not a fan of bringing reverb in and out. The performance would have been better with a reverb in place. The dynamics of the violin were enough, and it comes down to performance and timing.
The Reverb is the only option i found in bayan vst that i could move with a fader and made much significance in the sound. Theres no option for Dynamics. Perhaps i could fade the volume itself? I find the tone of the bayan amazing, but playing long melodies it sounds a bit flat to me, i thought this was the lack of expression, but Reverb might not be the best choice (i know a real player cannot really manipulate Reverb lol)

I realized now that i posted the wrong recording, this one is another Waltz in which i tested Spitfire violin, but my computer is too slow to it so i received little feedback while playing, i will edit adding the right recording.

Ksamphos
KVRer
14 posts since 8 Feb, 2019

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:02 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:09 am
Ksamphos wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:43 pm
Thank you, im meditating those days about your answers.
Im posting now after recording a piece of the Waltz but [1]this time while switching the reverb fader of efimov's bayan with the notebook touchpad. I feel It became a bit more interesting and realistic.

https://soundcloud.com/user-764724242/v ... -e-violino

Is this kind of thing that is missing? Maybe i need more equipment? [2]Im thinking on buying a simple fader control, might be a good Idea?
Thanks, [3]my computer got so slow recently that im using the smartphone all the time, but its difficult to write much here.
[1] Not sure why you feel that turning reverb on and off would add realism. Consider that reverb is used to create/define a space in which the instruments reside. By turning the reverb on and off, it's as if you are constantly wheeling your players back and forth between a concert hall and an anechoic chamber.

[2] A fader-bank (Korg NanoControl2 is quite popular) can definitely be a good addition if you are looking to add performance expression. But if your keyboard has a mod-wheel, you're already off to a good start. Also, don't forget that you can use automation, after-the-fact, to sculpt a more expressive performance. But in this case it did seem fine as it was.

[3] This is something to definitely look into getting sorted. With these simple pieces, I'd imagine it's not a case of the computer being under-powered. Maybe the had-drive is getting too full. Maybe you have too much running in the background while composing.

All that said, I quite enjoyed the second piece. Felt a bit erratic in places, and ended too abruptly. But good enough to build from.
I feel that moving reverb made It more realistic to my ears, even the technique doesnt making Sense. However, it lost a sweetness of tone that i liked in the previous version, i guess the closeness to the listener that little reverb (and fixed) brings is what i find Sweet. Not sure how to make the bayan more expressive then, the timing i could fix by practicing, but even in dedicated improvisation i cant make It more expressive by merely pressing the keyboard keys. Ive read somewhere a review of the bayan stating that the different Key switches(that changes the Accordion sound, clarinet,bassoon,etc) have different Dynamics. So a way to make expression could be switching It, however i can only do this with the mouse, i guess the Key switches are programmed for 88-key keyboard, mine has 61.
What i would like to do is that "in and out" flowing sound that i hear on every accordion recording (by pressing or opening the instrument i guess). Maybe i could reach that with external tools?

About the fader bank, the nanokontrol 2 is 66% more expensive than the "Worlde" fader where i live. As some complain that nanokontrol faders are too small and Worlde is a little bigger, do you think would be a good buy or its better to stay with Korg? Ill be using it mostly to move the faders with left hand while playing with the right.

Vsts doesnt recognize the modwheel of my Casio keyboard except for its typical use of detuning.

Ill search about automation and after the fact.

Ill buy a ssd and reinstall windows. Nowadays i make music with It but its boring unusable to such a basic task as writting on an internet forum.

Thank you, im practicing the second Waltz and ill post It later, it has more parts.

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thejonsolo
KVRAF
2404 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Charleston, SC

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:30 am

Ok I was listening to the violin, not the Bayan. The Bayan you can adjust the bellows. Reverb...set it and forget it. I assure you, it does not add realism. What you hear comes from listening to it too much. We fool ourselves. That is why fresh ears here is a good thing.

Volume adjustments DO add realism. Just like a tone on an accordion gets lighter as the bellows are not pushing enough air. So volume could be one automation aspect. The bellows could be another. But your performance above was better and that is really what makes a difference. I no longer see the first one for reference..

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seismic1
KVRAF
9362 posts since 13 Mar, 2009 from UK

Re: Little Waltz, accordion, piano and guitar

Post Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:42 pm

The composition was quite impressive (waltz piano accordion guitar.wav), and the arrangement was also enjoyable. Sort out the voicing/expression problems on here and this piece would not be out of place in a period movie score. I was thinking of the Godfather Part 1 as I listened to this (Nino Rota).

Good work :)

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