Why you left Ableton?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRist
76 posts since 8 Jun, 2021

Post Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:24 am

So it scans VST plugins every time you start it ?

KVRian
584 posts since 4 Feb, 2017

Post Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:48 pm

dfraze wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:24 am
So it scans VST plugins every time you start it ?
Yes

KVRist
76 posts since 8 Jun, 2021

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:58 am

Versions prior to V10 didn't do that as far as I can remember.

The only DAW that I know also does that is Cakewalk Sonar, at least while it was a Cakewalk product.

I don't know how it does things now it's owned by Bandlab.

Anyway, I don't know why Ableton does it, but it slows loading times considerably, and that makes me use it less.
Last edited by dfraze on Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

KVRian
872 posts since 14 Dec, 2014

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:50 am

Pretty much every software I ever used that uses plugins (not only audio) scans them in the startup, and their users expect any installed newly installed plugin to be available right after opening the host software.

Only popular software I've seen that makes the user enable the plugin in preferences after the software was opened is Blender.

Live 9 sure scanned plugins on start up, it had an option on options.txt to disable the startup scan (still works on 10 and 11).

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic ... s-txt-file

https://performodule.com/2019/02/22/ski ... ve-faster/

KVRAF
1727 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:28 pm

I'm pretty sure the scan is not in depth if it occurs. Just a look see for changes. I have a UA interface with all those plug-ins (that I don't use) and a complete rescan takes about a minute. I will say, it loads far faster on macOS than Windows, but it's still only about 10 seconds on Windows. If it's taking long enough to bother you, something else is going on or your computer needs upgrading.

KVRist
135 posts since 4 Nov, 2013 from Germany

Post Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:11 pm

Ableton Live reminds me of the Berlin airport: it takes forever and the construction site will never be finished. Plus the GUI, I think someone has already said that if you think this GUI is good, you will also find it good to stare at a gray concrete wall. Midi editing a disaster..browser is so so and i remember that you can't have Arrangement and Clip view at same time (only tab switching... really Ableton???), so bye bye Ableton and hello Bitwig :)

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KVRist
393 posts since 29 Apr, 2019

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:47 am

Toying with the demo mode of 11 suite reminds me how much easier and better bitwig is.
Drag a sample to the track area makes a sampler track. better EQs, FAR easier way to modulate parameters, applying effects on ANY FX plugins. Just the true full control vs needing to constantly go back to the browser for the simplest thing as a sampler or an eq. The browser in bitwig comes to you

KVRist
118 posts since 24 Oct, 2015

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:03 am

delete

KVRAF
8010 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:29 am

MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:47 am
Toying with the demo mode of 11 suite reminds me how much easier and better bitwig is.
Drag a sample to the track area makes a sampler track. better EQs, FAR easier way to modulate parameters, applying effects on ANY FX plugins. Just the true full control vs needing to constantly go back to the browser for the simplest thing as a sampler or an eq. The browser in bitwig comes to you
I use both, Bitwig certainly has some advantages, but Live has far better devices IMO and packs (70Gig+ with suite, amazingly good stuff even if if you treat Live like an instrument that sequences). Live has a brilliant reverb, far better than Bitwigs, 'midi' comping (Not just audio!), groove extraction and groove pool, audio to midi, real track freeze, lots of dedicated hardware and massive user base of people to work with and learn from. MAX is also different level to the Grid and comes free with suite (MAX is $400 on its own) although the grid is easier to use, its 'audio only' currently and delvers a fraction of the options in MAX which also has a massive user base with 1000's of free devices...I have more modulation devices (including many types of MSEG!) and options in Live than I do in Bitwig , but Bitwig is more coherent and easier to use.

Of course a lot of that may be irrelevant to you, but the vast majority of people are still using Live over Bitwig, so other may prefer some of Lives advantages. Both, its the only way to go :wink:
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, DM12, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals

KVRian
584 posts since 4 Feb, 2017

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:22 am

MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:47 am
Toying with the demo mode of 11 suite reminds me how much easier and better bitwig is.
Drag a sample to the track area makes a sampler track.

Same as in Live with a Simpler (that you easily can convert to a Sampler).
FAR easier way to modulate parameters, applying effects on ANY FX plugins.

To what FX Plugins can't you apply effects in Live?
Just the true full control vs needing to constantly go back to the browser for the simplest thing as a sampler or an eq. The browser in bitwig comes to you
Strange. Bitwig never tells me what plugin to use. I always have to search for it in the browser.

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KVRist
393 posts since 29 Apr, 2019

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:03 am

Rivanni wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:22 am
MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:47 am
Toying with the demo mode of 11 suite reminds me how much easier and better bitwig is.
Drag a sample to the track area makes a sampler track.

Same as in Live with a Simpler (that you easily can convert to a Sampler).
FAR easier way to modulate parameters, applying effects on ANY FX plugins.

To what FX Plugins can't you apply effects in Live?
Just the true full control vs needing to constantly go back to the browser for the simplest thing as a sampler or an eq. The browser in bitwig comes to you
Strange. Bitwig never tells me what plugin to use. I always have to search for it in the browser.
If you have a 3rd party plugin and want to let's say turn a delay into a shimmering delay you just add the effect to the effect

I never said that Bitwig tells you what you need but the convenience of just pressing the add button in either the track or device section will have a popup browser vs needing to go to the side browser all the time.
Also the sampler thing you are not understanding.
If I drag a sample to the track area, it automatically puts it into a sampler without needing to add the sampler first.

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KVRAF
3743 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:56 am

jonljacobi wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:28 pm
I'm pretty sure the scan is not in depth if it occurs. Just a look see for changes. I have a UA interface with all those plug-ins (that I don't use) and a complete rescan takes about a minute. I will say, it loads far faster on macOS than Windows, but it's still only about 10 seconds on Windows. If it's taking long enough to bother you, something else is going on or your computer needs upgrading.
It really depends on the DAW, Live loads pretty dammed quick after the first scan it ever does, same with Bitwig. Logic and DP check for changes much much slower. I also have 300+ plug ins, in AU and VST formats, plus VST3, so I accept that it's partially my fault.

The amount of time saved is exponential though, rarely these days does a plug-in pass inspection and crash your DAW. This was always super fun, because sometimes no crash report was created, and you had to manually remove plug ins until you found the offender.

KVRAF
8010 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:16 am

MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:03 am
I never said that Bitwig tells you what you need but the convenience of just pressing the add button in either the track or device section will have a popup browser vs needing to go to the side browser all the time.
Also the sampler thing you are not understanding.
If I drag a sample to the track area, it automatically puts it into a sampler without needing to add the sampler first.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean about adding an effect to an effect, but you can pretty much do the same things in Live and Bitwig in the rack, its only the modulation 'methods' that are different, its more like standard routing in Live (click source, click destination) but you can modulate just about anything and there are 1000's of modulation devices available.

Yes, Bitwig is great for little workflow features like drag a sample to the timeline and it shows as audio, drag it to the rack and it opens in sampler. It took a while, but Bitwig has a great sampler now. Live works differently with two different samplers, so perhaps the fact that you have to pick one first prohibits this feature.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, DM12, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals

KVRAF
3485 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:47 am

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:16 am
MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:03 am
I never said that Bitwig tells you what you need but the convenience of just pressing the add button in either the track or device section will have a popup browser vs needing to go to the side browser all the time.
Also the sampler thing you are not understanding.
If I drag a sample to the track area, it automatically puts it into a sampler without needing to add the sampler first.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean about adding an effect to an effect, but you can pretty much do the same things in Live and Bitwig in the rack, its only the modulation 'methods' that are different, its more like standard routing in Live (click source, click destination) but you can modulate just about anything and there are 1000's of modulation devices available.

Yes, Bitwig is great for little workflow features like drag a sample to the timeline and it shows as audio, drag it to the rack and it opens in sampler. It took a while, but Bitwig has a great sampler now. Live works differently with two different samplers, so perhaps the fact that you have to pick one first prohibits this feature.
I think Muzik meant putting the Shimmer in the feedback loop of the delay and that’s quite unique to BW.
But then the Simpler slicing function is unmatched by BW Sampler and extremely useful and creative and it could have been even better if the Slice control could be modulated.
Diva - Dune - Omnisphere - Serum - Spire

KVRAF
8010 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:57 pm

The new modulation stuff coming out for Live is amazing, I think MAX 8 (with MC and MPE etc) is going to be next level for Live.

Check this stuff out for fun Live modulation! https://k-devices.com/products/modulators21/

If you like to ‘roll your own’ you can do a lot of amazing stuff in Bitwig. If you like a constant stream of free or cheap devices from 3rd parties to inspire you, it’s Live all the way!
Last edited by SLiC on Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, DM12, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals

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