User error: do you refund?

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
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Youlean
KVRist
373 posts since 11 May, 2016 from Serbia

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:58 am

A better question would be why don't you support the Catalina in the first place?

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vortico
KVRist
318 posts since 19 Jul, 2008

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:01 am

That question is answered in 30+ threads here. Search "Apple" or "Catalina".
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elxsound
KVRAF
5605 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:06 am

Honestly, you did the right thing. Provide the refund and found an outlet to vent.

I've had to provide a refund for a preset pack because the user wasn't aware it required a specific plugin and wasn't sure what Midi was. Yes, lots of info available/warnings before purchase, but the headache wasn't worth it. Refund and done (followed by attempts to further idiot proof things).

I'm no longer on this side of things but you'll enjoy your next stiff drink all that much more after this.

User avatar
Youlean
KVRist
373 posts since 11 May, 2016 from Serbia

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:08 am

vortico wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:01 am
That question is answered in 30+ threads here. Search "Apple" or "Catalina".
I know about the problems with Catalina, but this was easily solved here in a few hours.

User avatar
SampleScience
KVRAF
4052 posts since 31 Oct, 2004 from Mtl, Canada

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:40 am

The plugins in question are now compatible with macOS Catalina and the customer is happy. No refund was needed for this situation.

The reason I ask about your thoughts about this is that some developers have a very different attitude toward user errors. Once, in a Flowstone group on Facebook, I saw some devs being very strict about not-refunding mac users who didn't read that their plugins were Windows only because there are so many of them that they are very tired of wasting their time issuing refunds.

Of course, this is not my situation as I offer both Windows and Mac plugins, but it's still interesting to see the different refund policies of other devs.

User avatar
SampleScience
KVRAF
4052 posts since 31 Oct, 2004 from Mtl, Canada

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:41 am

Youlean wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:58 am
A better question would be why don't you support the Catalina in the first place?
I now support macOS Catalina, but 2 days ago it was not the case. I happen to have more than 25 plugins to update and some of them are pretty and require more work to update. :tu:

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SampleScience
KVRAF
4052 posts since 31 Oct, 2004 from Mtl, Canada

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:46 am

Youlean wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:08 am
vortico wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:01 am
That question is answered in 30+ threads here. Search "Apple" or "Catalina".
I know about the problems with Catalina, but this was easily solved here in a few hours.
Because you have 1 plugin with no embedded sample library in it. Imagine having 25 plugins to notarize some of which weighting up to 4 GB because they are sample-based, it means uploading 4 GB x 3 (for AU/VST/VST3 installers) to Apple servers. It's just too much time so it's a no go for me. I had to find another way, which is still time-consuming but much faster.

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mladi
KVRian
978 posts since 14 Apr, 2016 from Germany

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Especially whith GAS there are for sure people out there who buy just for the fun of it. After the impulse is satisfied they realize that they don't really want/need what they bought. That has nothing to do with didn't reading a warning.
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User avatar
Youlean
KVRist
373 posts since 11 May, 2016 from Serbia

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:54 pm

SampleScience wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:46 am
Youlean wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:08 am
vortico wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:01 am
That question is answered in 30+ threads here. Search "Apple" or "Catalina".
I know about the problems with Catalina, but this was easily solved here in a few hours.
Because you have 1 plugin with no embedded sample library in it. Imagine having 25 plugins to notarize some of which weighting up to 4 GB because they are sample-based, it means uploading 4 GB x 3 (for AU/VST/VST3 installers) to Apple servers. It's just too much time so it's a no go for me. I had to find another way, which is still time-consuming but much faster.
Indeed. I figured that out once I went to your website. :)

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syntonica
KVRian
558 posts since 25 Sep, 2014 from Specific Northwest

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:41 pm

Unfortunately, with digital downloads, it's difficult to tell who's just dumb and/or impatient and who's trying to scam you.

With physical goods, I always say, Just send it back for a full refund. After 10 years, I've received exactly one item back, which was also a scam as it came back in far worse condition, to where I wasn't even sure it was the original item. All the rest were just trying it on for a returnless refund.

User avatar
SampleScience
KVRAF
4052 posts since 31 Oct, 2004 from Mtl, Canada

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:21 pm

syntonica wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:41 pm
Unfortunately, with digital downloads, it's difficult to tell who's just dumb and/or impatient and who's trying to scam you.
Exactly! Sometimes, I'll get emails from people who say that the plugin doesn't work on their computer when I know for a fact that it works because I have the exact same setup as them. But then, maybe there's something that can cause the bug on their computer and not one of mine. So I give the benefit of the doubt and refund.

I started asking for a screenshot or a video filmed with a phone to see the bug in action and usually, all I get is silence. So now I'm pretty sure some people scammed me by pretending there were bugs that weren't there in the first place. Which is an annoyance because I was trying to fix non-existing bugs!

And now with experience, I can see who's trying to scammed me more easily because the people who really want the plugin don't ask for a refund right-away, they want the plugin first and foremost. When I refund them they are disappointed.

Vertion
KVRian
654 posts since 29 Oct, 2016

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:00 pm

Wouldn’t your best course of action be selling hardware that your software is locked to? I think that would clear up issues for both developers and customers instantly. Customers get to own what they buy, and makes for near perfect copy protection. It’s a natural solution to so many problems.

We just need a few companies that are willing to manufacture the hardware portion for your software and sell it as a single product. Custom dropship style? :idea:
:) SLH :)

User avatar
SampleScience
KVRAF
4052 posts since 31 Oct, 2004 from Mtl, Canada

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:06 pm

Vertion wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:00 pm
Wouldn’t your best course of action be selling hardware that your software is locked to? I think that would clear up issues for both developers and customers instantly. Customers get to own what they buy, and makes for near perfect copy protection. It’s a natural solution to so many problems.

We just need a few companies that are willing to manufacture the hardware portion for your software and sell it as a single product. Custom dropship style? :idea:
They are as many problems with hardware as software. It doesn't solve anything, it's even adding problems. Have you ever run a business selling hard goods? I have and there were still "customers" trying to scam me.

Vertion
KVRian
654 posts since 29 Oct, 2016

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:57 pm

SampleScience wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:06 pm
Vertion wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:00 pm
Wouldn’t your best course of action be selling hardware that your software is locked to? I think that would clear up issues for both developers and customers instantly. Customers get to own what they buy, and makes for near perfect copy protection. It’s a natural solution to so many problems.

We just need a few companies that are willing to manufacture the hardware portion for your software and sell it as a single product. Custom dropship style? :idea:
They are as many problems with hardware as software. It doesn't solve anything, it's even adding problems. Have you ever run a business selling hard goods? I have and there were still "customers" trying to scam me.
I think a snake in a pope hat is an accurate metaphor of humanity. No matter how saint-like humanity wants to see itself, it’s still snakes. Anyone who brings that truth to light, or if one of their pope hat falls off, they all attack that one rashly with endless venom.

The problem with software is ownership and control. Most customers disagree with challenge response because access is designed to be controlled by a company instead of the customer. Reaction to this today can be seen in the right to repair movement as a response to control mongers like Apple and John Deer. When it gets too bad, people abandon those control schemes for something they have more control over. Linux is such a response to Apple and Microsoft.

The only good rationalization for challenge response is copy protection, but it can easily be corrupted into control and access denial, exploiting or abandoning the customer, the other side of the C/R coin.

If you had a custom physical hardware product, that runs your software on, it solves this. The customer can feel as they have full control as the software comes preinstalled and is locked to the individual hardware. The customer cannot claim compatibility issues or the like since it is a single tangible product. The software is paired for and made for the hardware alone. For example, my husband’s Sub37 comes with software that runs on it, it came that way. He owns the product as a whole, no compatibility issues, no confusion, no challenge response.

As long as you stay in a software field controlled by others in the market, there will be a huge number of snags. Everytime Apple wants to change something, a whole new world of problems. Everytime Steinberg says jump, you will say ‘how high?’ if they change their plugin interface.

On the other hand, a piece of dedicated hardware is fixed, and once it works, you are done. There are not a thousand OSes and DAW issues to deal with. Development becomes streamlined to a single system with a single configuration. Difficult to break as it is signed to the hardware itself. The user buys the product and can get away with less nonsense due to it’s clear tangibility.

There will always be scamming snakes, but surely you can see how dedicated hardware can limit much of the software nonsense; how it can limit the scammers. Also, once a piece of software on a Mac/PC loses it’s copy protection, it can be copied an endless number of times. But dedicated hardware is paired only to its dedicated software, there is nowhere else to copy to. The customer is happy that they own what they bought without restrictions, and support is minimal by comparison. Surely you can see the advantages.

On that note, I would love to see a dedicated hardware synth running Uhe, Synapse, Tone2, Xfer, or Cytomic software on it. Imagine buying Diva as a hardware synth, custom interface, running dedicated software. I’d bet anyone it would be an instant hit, practically everyone would buy it, especially if they added a few exclusive features to it. The market would go bananas. :D
:) SLH :)

rasmusklump
KVRian
980 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Germany

Re: User error: do you refund?

Post Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:25 am

Note to myself: Do not use plugins by Youlean and don't support him if he once makes a commercial one.

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