Stratocaster trem bar - is there a double blocking system or something?

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lfm
KVRAF
5365 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Tue May 26, 2020 6:46 am

Hi
Got my first stratocaster recently and this floating trem is not that difficult to setup in itself, just while working on and fine tuning overall guitar setup so many things affect each other.

- change action of one string, and momentum back to springs are affected and whole guitar out of tune.
- the intonation moves a bit on all strings, since equilibrium slightly moved where saddles are when in balance with springs
- change neck relief and you have to start over again

Would be fun to discover trem bar playing, but wonder if worth it as this vintage trem is made.

Since you can block it all together, wonder if there are double blocking system where you have two different pivot points - one for dive and one for raise or similar.

So two sets of springs that hold it in either direction towards a base is the image in my head?

Maybe is hard to control then, moving from that base - don't know.

Thanks.

ShawnG
KVRian
784 posts since 27 Apr, 2005

Post Tue May 26, 2020 7:25 am

I haven’t overcome inertia enough yet to actually buy or install this thing yet, but this is what I’m planning on throwing in my strat one of these days.

https://super-vee.com/products/tremolo- ... laderunner

The strat vintage trem has always been problematic with tuning issues. Part of its charm, and also why I haven’t had the bar on my strat for decades.

lfm
KVRAF
5365 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Tue May 26, 2020 7:43 am

Thanks.
What are you expecting to improve with this?

Just a bit intrigued by Jeff Beck and Jennifer Batten how they use trem. Like creating talking almost, that type of melody runs. So studying some YT that refer to slide work with trem bar like JB, kind of.

It stays nicely in tune when setup is not changing, so just some thought while finding the sweet spot for that guitar. But might end up just blocking the thing and removing bar.

ShawnG
KVRian
784 posts since 27 Apr, 2005

Post Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 am

Im just looking for a trem that I can use occasionally without throwing the guitar out of tune, also the super-vee claims to increase the sustain of the guitar due to the design. I don’t expect to become Jeff Beck (although the guitar currently has a Seymour Duncan Jeff Beck Jr. pickup in the bridge, lol)

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Forgotten
KVRAF
11461 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Post Tue May 26, 2020 8:03 am

Nut sauce and locking tuners can make a big difference to keeping it in tune. Setup is obviously a big deal too, but once you get it right you shouldn't have significant problems.

For two direction pivot, you basically have to take the screws in the bridge back a little until you can get maybe a tone or so of upward bend on each string. It's a huge pain to set up, but worth it once you have it right.

lfm
KVRAF
5365 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Tue May 26, 2020 8:09 am

Thanks.
Yes, I did that thing with 1/2 step on high E, full step on B and 1.5 step on G for some licks that use that.
Carl Verheyen demonstrate a bit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy-F7iSIopA

Winstontaneous
KVRAF
1879 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Post Tue May 26, 2020 11:26 am

lfm - just to clarify do you have the vintage style Strat bridge with the 6 screws into the body (as opposed to 2 posts on the side)?

When I had whammy bar guitars I always set them to not pull up so there wouldn't be these issues.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
11461 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Post Tue May 26, 2020 11:27 am

The other option is to drop a Floyd Rose in there...

lfm
KVRAF
5365 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Tue May 26, 2020 11:47 am

Winstontaneous wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:26 am
lfm - just to clarify do you have the vintage style Strat bridge with the 6 screws into the body (as opposed to 2 posts on the side)?

When I had whammy bar guitars I always set them to not pull up so there wouldn't be these issues.
Vintage 6 screw.

I guess blocking one way is what many do. Screw the claw so always against body on the back, and just adjust saddle height to that position and intonation and all.

Just got a bit curious over trying it a bit more as floating or if there were double way ones that were separated in each direction.

Tuning to high E-string as I do is creating a reference issue if low E or other goes out of tune, then high E-do enough to have to check that high E with tuner first. And not seldom going over all string 3-4 times before all are in tune. Every change in tension on block+springs affect the whole instrument.

I've been trimming the setup the weeks I had guitar now - and a bit annoyed how a bit of change in action on one string make all setup go away.

So if there were a center blocked position that had double ways to go was pretty much what I asked in title - or meant to. So bit of leeway before pitch changes.

xtp
KVRian
966 posts since 4 Jun, 2006

Post Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 pm

lfm wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:09 am
Carl Verheyen demonstrate a bit
That was interesting.

I put five springs on mine and locked the screws on the bridge down tight effectively turning it into a fixed bridge. I might give that a try next time I change strings.

In the past, I put a Kahler tremolo on one of the SG's I owned, but didn''t like it, and on-sold it within a year or so. I have always liked those wammy bar sounds but have never been able to gel my own playing with one.

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excuse me please
KVRian
513 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Wed May 27, 2020 9:05 pm

First you should lock your strings, if you haven't done this already:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opmg6lK8FkY

lfm
KVRAF
5365 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Wed May 27, 2020 10:19 pm

xtp wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 pm
I put five springs on mine and locked the screws on the bridge down tight effectively turning it into a fixed bridge.
Basic idea from where you are
- tune guitar to pitch
- dive and pick G-string so it shows 3 chromatic steps down(to an E) on tuner - this is the position bridge should be in as floated later.
- you can fix that pos by papers from a book or anything piled under back towards body. Small post-it block or thin book, rip from newspaper on anything.
- then adjust height of saddles to be in same position as you like your action as it will become. Saddles go up and down a bit moving bar.
- then maybe pick out springs to leave 3 or so
- tune all strings to pitch
- drop claw until piled papers under back drop - then you are close

and some back and forth adjusting claw and tuning to pitch on all 6 so max show G-string as A# with bar on max pull.

This makes B-string go 2 frets to C#, and E one fret to E#.

Basically what this guy did(but changed order of adjusting action above since momentum of string pull on springs change doing that):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7luUzgDwwcs

then he shows how you could tune and correct when it does not return to pitch while playing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0Oyc6slYRc

imrae
KVRian
1191 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Post Wed May 27, 2020 10:59 pm

There are some gadgets out there like the Goldo backbox: https://m.thomann.de/gb/goeldo_backbox.htm

This is a pre-stressed spring which the block contacts and prevents it moving further towards neck (i.e. raising pitch). It gives a more stable base to tune against than a fully-floating arrangement, but if you pull hard enough on the bar you can still get a pitch rise.

Not tried it myself; on my friends' strats I just added more springs to pull the trem block flush with wood for dive-only action.

lfm
KVRAF
5365 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Wed May 27, 2020 11:12 pm

Thanks, noted as an option.

Some of the techniques can be done with pre-bend of notes before picking etc so will see which way to go. Will give floating a bit of a chance first. Maybe I will just fix bridge later on.

xtp
KVRian
966 posts since 4 Jun, 2006

Post Thu May 28, 2020 12:53 am

lfm wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:19 pm
Basically what this guy did(but changed order of adjusting action above since momentum of string pull on springs change doing that)
Awesome. I have saved a link to this thread.

I need to order some new strings and I really want to change my pickup switch to a 2-way and have been putting it off, so I might do both jobs at the same time. Hopefully this technique is also just as stable on flatwounds.

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