I'm being serious. 12 1/2 minutes of progressive house/techno.

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Spring Goose
KVRian
977 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:41 am

It has melodic progressions, and musical themes. It isn't gratuitously long. There are one or two lengths of repetition which are required for the timbre of the "track". You realise that typical dance music songs on vinyl are 7-8 minutes long.

https://soundcloud.com/user-492255322/f ... EbzOV8uzII

If you decide to take the plunge on this one, then please tell me what you think.

Spring Goose
KVRian
977 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:51 am

I mean measure/delivery i think not timbre.

User avatar
wagtunes
KVRAF
19706 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Post Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:48 am

After the comment you left on my thread (thank you) I felt I owed this a listen to.

Understanding that this music is not really my thing, I am not going to comment on the musical composition itself but just on the mix because that's something I do know something about, at least more than 2 years ago. Listen to my most recent tracks and you can judge for yourself.

Okay, so where do I begin?

Well, first off, I listen to everything through headphones. I feel I can get the best feel for the entire mix, especially stereo field. Now, i keep my headphone volume level at dead center. I find that gives me the best overall listening experience with very few exceptions. Some tracks are obnoxiously loud and I have to turn them down a lot (9 o'clock) and some are so soft I have to turn them up a lot (3 o'clock) but those are the exceptions. Most music sits perfectly listening at 12 o'clock.

Having said that, I had to turn your track up to 2 o'clock to have an enjoyable listening experience, at least volume wise. So the track itself is too soft.

Elsewhere, the low end is muddy. The kick doesn't cut through very well. None of the drums do for that matter. I don't know if you're using compression on the drums but it's not doing the job if you are. Either that or you have the volume of the drums too low relative to everything else. The bass is also muddy. It does cut through a little better than the kick. Npow, part of the problem might be masking. The bass might be stomping over the kick frequency around 50 hz. That would also explain the muddiness. If you take a spectrum analyzer to this track I think you will find there is very little top and there is a lot going on below 50 hz that simply doesn't need to be there.

The production aspect of the track isn't horrible but it really could use a lot of work. Right now, it's just dull. There's no life to it. Maybe others who are more "expert" on this genre will add in their 2 cents.

Spring Goose
KVRian
977 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:03 am

Thanks Wagtunes. I'll take another look at the bottom end.

WasteLand
KVRian
884 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:38 am

i like the track.
it is strange listening it on Mission 761i, my studio monitors, on harman/kardon pm640vxi. it is in balance, the low.
listening to my secondary speakers, bns elessy one (they tend to emphasize the low, but they aren't positioned right), yes the kick is driven away, because the bass you play 3 notes, the lowest 30hz, the highest 60hz (range 60-70), where the kick is position.
if my FFT analyzer is correct (my soundcard has one.. it is pretty correct...), you see indeed masking.
i don't see much rumble, in a way, and it seems to depend which speakers you use.

i normally check the mix, of i am further down the path, on a high end installation, which is mercyless. but i has strangely the same balance as the missions, for me, but i am biased, i know the speakers, biased in the way, i have learned them.

but indeed there is something going on in the lows. more masking then rumbling, the kick is to soft, or the bass too hard.

the mission's i am used to mix on, so i can now what to expect. if you know your speaker, by experience, you know what you can expect. i repeat, but i don't go that low, 30Hz-40Hz, normally. the mission's can't reproduce it. and i don't mind, my style of music.

the bns elessy one pair is substitute for my bns elessy two pair, one woofer something is wrong, not blown up, but, o well. so i don't the bns speakers well enough to determine what is going on.

i am listening for the second time, the kick is now more pronounced, to focused on FFT analyses, and phase.

the production can indeed be better, the track is good, is this made for PA systems? that works differently, and i am no expert on that area, or better, i am no expert at all. only for my own music...

but FFT analysis sees trouble.

but i like the track, and i don't mind masking, but i notice now, that my ears, the bass is too hard.

i see that everything under 1000Hz, is mono. a bit high, for mono, but why not. know the rules and then break them.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

Spring Goose
KVRian
977 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:48 am

WasteLand wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:38 am
i like the track.
it is strange listening it on Mission 761i, my studio monitors, on harman/kardon pm640vxi. it is in balance, the low.
listening to my secondary speakers, bns elessy one (they tend to emphasize the low, but they aren't positioned right), yes the kick is driven away, because the bass you play 3 notes, the lowest 30hz, the highest 60hz (range 60-70), where the kick is position.
if my FFT analyzer is correct (my soundcard has one.. it is pretty correct...), you see indeed masking.
i don't see much rumble, in a way, and it seems to depend which speakers you use.

i normally check the mix, of i am further down the path, on a high end installation, which is mercyless. but i has strangely the same balance as the missions, for me, but i am biased, i know the speakers, biased in the way, i have learned them.

but indeed there is something going on in the lows. more masking then rumbling, the kick is to soft, or the bass too hard.

the mission's i am used to mix on, so i can now what to expect. if you know your speaker, by experience, you know what you can expect. i repeat, but i don't go that low, 30Hz-40Hz, normally. the mission's can't reproduce it. and i don't mind, my style of music.

the bns elessy one pair is substitute for my bns elessy two pair, one woofer something is wrong, not blown up, but, o well. so i don't the bns speakers well enough to determine what is going on.

i am listening for the second time, the kick is now more pronounced, to focused on FFT analyses, and phase.

the production can indeed be better, the track is good, is this made for PA systems? that works differently, and i am no expert on that area, or better, i am no expert at all. only for my own music...

but FFT analysis sees trouble.

but i like the track, and i don't mind masking, but i notice now, that my ears, the bass is too hard.

i see that everything under 1000Hz, is mono. a bit high, for mono, but why not. know the rules and then break them.
Thanks Wasteland, your reply is very useful to me.

No it isn't really made for PA systems, with the problem being that i don't have access to a PA system to check it! I do tend to be looking for a "club" sound, but i only can compare it to my memory of what a club sounds like. I've just recently got an Avantone Mixcube which has been recommended to me by a number of places as being excellent for making the right mix for listening on laptops, mobile phones, and car stereos which are the most popular choices for listening nowadays. I thought it sounded ok, wellbalanced but i'll have to look at it again at the low end now. I'm certain that it is much improved than my previous mixes, and i haven't been mixing for long (about 8 months).

WasteLand
KVRian
884 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:14 am

Spring Goose wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:48 am
WasteLand wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:38 am
i like the track.
it is strange listening it on Mission 761i, my studio monitors, on harman/kardon pm640vxi. it is in balance, the low.
listening to my secondary speakers, bns elessy one (they tend to emphasize the low, but they aren't positioned right), yes the kick is driven away, because the bass you play 3 notes, the lowest 30hz, the highest 60hz (range 60-70), where the kick is position.
if my FFT analyzer is correct (my soundcard has one.. it is pretty correct...), you see indeed masking.
i don't see much rumble, in a way, and it seems to depend which speakers you use.

i normally check the mix, of i am further down the path, on a high end installation, which is mercyless. but i has strangely the same balance as the missions, for me, but i am biased, i know the speakers, biased in the way, i have learned them.

but indeed there is something going on in the lows. more masking then rumbling, the kick is to soft, or the bass too hard.

the mission's i am used to mix on, so i can now what to expect. if you know your speaker, by experience, you know what you can expect. i repeat, but i don't go that low, 30Hz-40Hz, normally. the mission's can't reproduce it. and i don't mind, my style of music.

the bns elessy one pair is substitute for my bns elessy two pair, one woofer something is wrong, not blown up, but, o well. so i don't the bns speakers well enough to determine what is going on.

i am listening for the second time, the kick is now more pronounced, to focused on FFT analyses, and phase.

the production can indeed be better, the track is good, is this made for PA systems? that works differently, and i am no expert on that area, or better, i am no expert at all. only for my own music...

but FFT analysis sees trouble.

but i like the track, and i don't mind masking, but i notice now, that my ears, the bass is too hard.

i see that everything under 1000Hz, is mono. a bit high, for mono, but why not. know the rules and then break them.
Thanks Wasteland, your reply is very useful to me.

No it isn't really made for PA systems, with the problem being that i don't have access to a PA system to check it! I do tend to be looking for a "club" sound, but i only can compare it to my memory of what a club sounds like. I've just recently got an Avantone Mixcube which has been recommended to me by a number of places as being excellent for making the right mix for listening on laptops, mobile phones, and car stereos which are the most popular choices for listening nowadays. I thought it sounded ok, wellbalanced but i'll have to look at it again at the low end now. I'm certain that it is much improved than my previous mixes, and i haven't been mixing for long (about 8 months).
a club sound, maybe i tend to confuse terms, is in a way a PA system, the subwoofer...
mixing takes indeed experience, it took me also a long time, to be very detailed, although my old mixes, do sound ok, or even sometimes good. but i notice things, but i will not remix them, they sound as they sound, also with my limited playing and other techniques, it is package :party:

i had to look up avantone mixcube, but i recognize them.
do you listen also on other installations/equipment, a friend. (o that is always the last step, listening it by my neighbour, when it sounds right there, it is perfect.. as perfect as i can achieve.. the step is now less important.. i am getting used to my high end installation, bought for peanuts, performance like a year income.)

so for me it is difficult to judge by ear. but the FFT analysis shows some problem. or problem, it is what you want.

and you mix for a club sound, a different expertise. but i think you must make 2 mixes, one for club, one for normal stereo (who has a stereo installation nowadays, a real one, the term alone, is old. as i am..). bluetooth speakers, jbl (that emphasize the low, jbl isn't my kind of sound, although i have KEF reference speakers, isn't jbl a part of KEF, no....).

if you have specific goal, go for it. maybe i must play it on my laptop.
and i have a bluetooth speaker, a quite good one, not jbl... spend a week listening music that way, to experience what people hear nowadays. o yes, headphones, but headphones have there own problems, although, i recently discoverd i have over 30 years a headphone, that were top of the line.. and still wanted... they have a real clean balance. and still sound amazing. didn't use those headphones for years. only cheaper ones, bad for my ears..

i tend to write personal and general, without seperation... but it makes it easier for me to communicate, how things work.

there are in a no rules, of course basic rules, but i saw once a not unknown producer, who mixes on computer speakers, a long time ago i saw it on YT. now your speakers. they have to have a certain basic quality, or more than basic. but most importantly know your speakers, or headphones.
wagtunes seems to be used to headphones, and is experienced in that way, how things will sound.

EDIT: i see that your speakers are passive, so you use an amplifier?
when i changed my amplifier, it took me month to get used to the sound, although the amplifier i now use is way better, the amplifier i used before isn't a bad amplifier, on the contrary.
but first i thought the sound was worse...

getting used to your speakers, is also compare your mixes on other equipment. when you do it a lot, you train your brain, it is that simple.

i am speaking like an expert, i am just one of the best poets of the world :party: , but not the best producer or musician... far from it.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

Spring Goose
KVRian
977 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:29 am

WasteLand wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:14 am
Spring Goose wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:48 am
WasteLand wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:38 am
i like the track.
it is strange listening it on Mission 761i, my studio monitors, on harman/kardon pm640vxi. it is in balance, the low.
listening to my secondary speakers, bns elessy one (they tend to emphasize the low, but they aren't positioned right), yes the kick is driven away, because the bass you play 3 notes, the lowest 30hz, the highest 60hz (range 60-70), where the kick is position.
if my FFT analyzer is correct (my soundcard has one.. it is pretty correct...), you see indeed masking.
i don't see much rumble, in a way, and it seems to depend which speakers you use.

i normally check the mix, of i am further down the path, on a high end installation, which is mercyless. but i has strangely the same balance as the missions, for me, but i am biased, i know the speakers, biased in the way, i have learned them.

but indeed there is something going on in the lows. more masking then rumbling, the kick is to soft, or the bass too hard.

the mission's i am used to mix on, so i can now what to expect. if you know your speaker, by experience, you know what you can expect. i repeat, but i don't go that low, 30Hz-40Hz, normally. the mission's can't reproduce it. and i don't mind, my style of music.

the bns elessy one pair is substitute for my bns elessy two pair, one woofer something is wrong, not blown up, but, o well. so i don't the bns speakers well enough to determine what is going on.

i am listening for the second time, the kick is now more pronounced, to focused on FFT analyses, and phase.

the production can indeed be better, the track is good, is this made for PA systems? that works differently, and i am no expert on that area, or better, i am no expert at all. only for my own music...

but FFT analysis sees trouble.

but i like the track, and i don't mind masking, but i notice now, that my ears, the bass is too hard.

i see that everything under 1000Hz, is mono. a bit high, for mono, but why not. know the rules and then break them.
Thanks Wasteland, your reply is very useful to me.

No it isn't really made for PA systems, with the problem being that i don't have access to a PA system to check it! I do tend to be looking for a "club" sound, but i only can compare it to my memory of what a club sounds like. I've just recently got an Avantone Mixcube which has been recommended to me by a number of places as being excellent for making the right mix for listening on laptops, mobile phones, and car stereos which are the most popular choices for listening nowadays. I thought it sounded ok, wellbalanced but i'll have to look at it again at the low end now. I'm certain that it is much improved than my previous mixes, and i haven't been mixing for long (about 8 months).
a club sound, maybe i tend to confuse terms, is in a way a PA system, the subwoofer...
mixing takes indeed experience, it took me also a long time, to be very detailed, although my old mixes, do sound ok, or even sometimes good. but i notice things, but i will not remix them, they sound as they sound, also with my limited playing and other techniques, it is package :party:

i had to look up avantone mixcube, but i recognize them.
do you listen also on other installations/equipment, a friend. (o that is always the last step, listening it by my neighbour, when it sounds right there, it is perfect.. as perfect as i can achieve.. the step is now less important.. i am getting used to my high end installation, bought for peanuts, performance like a year income.)

so for me it is difficult to judge by ear. but the FFT analysis shows some problem. or problem, it is what you want.

and you mix for a club sound, a different expertise. but i think you must make 2 mixes, one for club, one for normal stereo (who has a stereo installation nowadays, a real one, the term alone, is old. as i am..). bluetooth speakers, jbl (that emphasize the low, jbl isn't my kind of sound, although i have KEF reference speakers, isn't jbl a part of KEF, no....).

if you have specific goal, go for it. maybe i must play it on my laptop.
and i have a bluetooth speaker, a quite good one, not jbl... spend a week listening music that way, to experience what people hear nowadays. o yes, headphones, but headphones have there own problems, although, i recently discoverd i have over 30 years a headphone, that were top of the line.. and still wanted... they have a real clean balance. and still sound amazing. didn't use those headphones for years. only cheaper ones, bad for my ears..

i tend to write personal and general, without seperation... but it makes it easier for me to communicate, how things work.

there are in a no rules, of course basic rules, but i saw once a not unknown producer, who mixes on computer speakers, a long time ago i saw it on YT. now your speakers. they have to have a certain basic quality, or more than basic. but most importantly know your speakers, or headphones.
wagtunes seems to be used to headphones, and is experienced in that way, how things will sound.

EDIT: i see that your speakers are passive, so you use an amplifier?
when i changed my amplifier, it took me month to get used to the sound, although the amplifier i now use is way better, the amplifier i used before isn't a bad amplifier, on the contrary.
but first i thought the sound was worse...

getting used to your speakers, is also compare your mixes on other equipment. when you do it a lot, you train your brain, it is that simple.

i am speaking like an expert, i am just one of the best poets of the world :party: , but not the best producer or musician... far from it.
:)

My Avantone mixcube is active.

I also have JBL One 104, budget small speakers for music production, recommended by Music Tech magazine here in UK, and then headphones i have Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro. I bought the headphones first because i understood that good listening is very important. Now i also use Sonarworks Reference with the headphones as recommended by Recursive One here on KVR.

I don't know about the JBL One 104. My intuition is that their mixes don't translate well to other systems, so i don't use them for mixing but i have check the stereo image after mixing with the (mono) Mixcube. I have a book Mixing secrets For The Small Studio which recommends do 80% of the mix with the Avantone Mixcube. I understand that this book isn't about dance/club music and that mixing for club may be a different discipline. I've only had the Mixcube since less than a week!

WasteLand
KVRian
884 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:40 am

Spring Goose wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:29 am

:)

My Avantone mixcube is active.

I also have JBL One 104, budget small speakers for music production, recommended by Music Tech magazine here in UK, and then headphones i have Beyerdynamic DT 199 Pro. I bought the headphones first because i understood that good listening is very important. Now i also use Sonarworks Reference with the headphones as recommended by Recursive One here on KVR.

I don't know about the JBL One 104. My intuition is that their mixes don't translate well to other systems, so i don't use them for mixing but i have check the stereo image after mixing with the (mono) Mixcube. I have a book Mixing secrets For The Small Studio which recommends do 80% of the mix with the Avantone Mixcube. I understand that this book isn't about dance/club music and that mixing for club may be a different discipline. I've only had the Mixcube since less than a week!
ow, then there a passive ones, or the info was wrong on that page.
ow, and i criticed JBL... it is also a matter of taste. of course...... they are so, american... although harman/kardon is also american??? o, harman/kardon owns jbl, or the other way around.
strange, in a way, and not strange in way. the old harman/kardon amplifiers (and one from around 2010, that is for me too expensive second hand, i will wait), are quite good, and known for their bass performance. but also, not all of them, for their neutral response. or to my ears.
i have a also a harman/kardon for my KEF speakers, that classes out the amplifier i use in my studio, also h/k as i mentioned.

but in the end, if the quality is at a certain level, it is experience.

good headphones!

o you have them less than a week! sometimes immediately they work for you. but as already explained, perhaps lower, or kick more dominant (the ultimate unmasking tool is a spectral editor, or a spectral eq/compressor, but within in a mix you can do a lot, without those tools).
i shall listen to it, on what is for me the real reference. and i learn from this kind of stuff.
it makes me listen better.

good luck, seems nice speakers for your wishes.

or we going too much off topic? listening depends also on the equipment you use, and what works for you. what i now have, makes it great to judge a mix. and i master in the mix, perhaps it will change, i can make a mastering setup, but i am not that well trained in mastering. o well in mastering in the mix, for my own music.

it sometimes difficult to judge, taste does matter, reactions on my tracks, a few years back, not really many complaints about the production, only by trained engineers/producers.
now, never complaints, only about the style, sometimes, haha.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

Spring Goose
KVRian
977 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:53 am

No i don't think we are going too much off topic!

These are JBL studio speakers, not PA. I got it at the recommendation of a music production magazine for a budget speaker for a small room. I'm not too disappointed by it, because it did only cost £100 (one hundred)!

Thanks for the advice. I'll need to look at it with a spectral analyser then.

WasteLand
KVRian
884 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:30 am

Spring Goose wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:53 am
No i don't think we are going too much off topic!

These are JBL studio speakers, not PA. I got it at the recommendation of a music production magazine for a budget speaker for a small room. I'm not too disappointed by it, because it did only cost £100 (one hundred)!

Thanks for the advice. I'll need to look at it with a spectral analyser then.
yes, sometimes you need visual aid... a spectral analyser i use also, one which also can show several tracks, and the built in one of cubase. nice tools.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

Spring Goose
KVRian
977 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:29 am

wagtunes wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:48 am
After the comment you left on my thread (thank you) I felt I owed this a listen to.

Understanding that this music is not really my thing,
Disco is the gateway to house music Wagtunes! I've noticed that you are at least dance-curious (no offence). :)

I'll go listen to couple of your recent songs now, i owe you that. :)

Spring Goose
KVRian
977 posts since 31 Jan, 2020

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 am

WasteLand wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:30 am
Spring Goose wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:53 am
No i don't think we are going too much off topic!

These are JBL studio speakers, not PA. I got it at the recommendation of a music production magazine for a budget speaker for a small room. I'm not too disappointed by it, because it did only cost £100 (one hundred)!

Thanks for the advice. I'll need to look at it with a spectral analyser then.
yes, sometimes you need visual aid... a spectral analyser i use also, one which also can show several tracks, and the built in one of cubase. nice tools.
I tried the Bitwig spectrum analyser but it just looked like a fast-moving curly line to me!

User avatar
wagtunes
KVRAF
19706 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:38 am

Spring Goose wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:29 am
wagtunes wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:48 am
After the comment you left on my thread (thank you) I felt I owed this a listen to.

Understanding that this music is not really my thing,
Disco is the gateway to house music Wagtunes! I've noticed that you are at least dance-curious (no offence). :)

I'll go listen to couple of your recent songs now, i owe you that. :)
It's okay. No obligation necessary.

WasteLand
KVRian
884 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:35 am

Spring Goose wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 am

I tried the Bitwig spectrum analyser but it just looked like a fast-moving curly line to me!
i have bitwig studio quite recently, and i am working on other things. tried the analyzer, you can't really, or perhaps you can, set the average.

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MAnalyzer

is perhaps better.

EDIT: yes the device panel, i knew of the existence, and there you can control speed, resolution and more, and you can use 2 signals, like cubase. so put bass on A, kick on B, set the settings to your liking.

MMultiAnalyzer is also pretty good, or even better. i don't know. spectrum can do the job.
Last edited by WasteLand on Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

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