I think that pretty much nails it right there.
But then, you don't really need an oscilloscope to confirm what your ears can obviously hear!
I think that pretty much nails it right there.
Bravo here!! This. All the way. I enjoy more of life NOT chasing perfectionism.wagtunes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:17 pm
I think most people care to a point. If it's close (subjective term) that's good enough. I think the minority of the population is to the point where every envelope has to be 100% spot on and the osc waveform has to look identical to the hardware unit, not that that's even possible in some cases where the hardware is notorious for fluctuations in its sound from one instrument to another and even from one day to another.
I'm not that anal. But yes, I expect the "Gary Numan Cars Patch" on my Xils PolyM to sound close enough to where I'm saying to myself, "Yep, that's the sound."
The only emulations I've ever heard that were 100% identical were the Korg synths in the legacy collection such as the Wavestation, because it's literally the same software. I owned a Wavestation and can honestly say there is no difference in the sound.
But that's where it ends. Every other emulation I've ever purchased is not 100% identical to the hardware.
I don't care.
YMMV
There’s a tendency here with people who conflate the quest for quality with the quest for perfectionism. Of course there’s no such thing as a perfect emulation, especially when we’re talking about electronics made at a time when tolerances were not great and and definitely not improving over decades. That said, computers can process a lot more than they did a few decades ago. I was away from analog for a long time, but when I got back into it, I quickly saw what the fuss was about. A good analog synth has a character that can be really special. Similar in a way to how a good acoustic instruments feels and sounds. This was around 2005, and analog emulations weren’t that great, so I picked up a Studio Electronics ATC-1. (2 oscillator synth based on cloned Minimoog circuits) So good. If you couldn’t hear the difference between it and Minimoog V, you probably suffer from hearing damage.wwjd wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:47 pmBravo here!! This. All the way. I enjoy more of life NOT chasing perfectionism.wagtunes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:17 pm
I think most people care to a point. If it's close (subjective term) that's good enough. I think the minority of the population is to the point where every envelope has to be 100% spot on and the osc waveform has to look identical to the hardware unit, not that that's even possible in some cases where the hardware is notorious for fluctuations in its sound from one instrument to another and even from one day to another.
I'm not that anal. But yes, I expect the "Gary Numan Cars Patch" on my Xils PolyM to sound close enough to where I'm saying to myself, "Yep, that's the sound."
The only emulations I've ever heard that were 100% identical were the Korg synths in the legacy collection such as the Wavestation, because it's literally the same software. I owned a Wavestation and can honestly say there is no difference in the sound.
But that's where it ends. Every other emulation I've ever purchased is not 100% identical to the hardware.
I don't care.
YMMV
There's another way to look at it. Let's say you're right, that some synths just don't sound as good as others, which I absolutely feel is true. Those "inferior" synths still have a character to them. Some, uniquely so. I have a ton of "bad sounding" synths that I still use because they have something I like about them. Korg Wavestation is a perfect example of this. In actuality, the samples in that thing sound horrible compared to what you can get today. But they have a unique character that you just know it's a Wavestation.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:35 amThere’s a tendency here with people who conflate the quest for quality with the quest for perfectionism. Of course there’s no such thing as a perfect emulation, especially when we’re talking about electronics made at a time when tolerances were not great and and definitely not improving over decades. That said, computers can process a lot more than they did a few decades ago. I was away from analog for a long time, but when I got back into it, I quickly saw what the fuss was about. A good analog synth has a character that can be really special. Similar in a way to how a good acoustic instruments feels and sounds. This was around 2005, and analog emulations weren’t that great, so I picked up a Studio Electronics ATC-1. (2 oscillator synth based on cloned Minimoog circuits) So good. If you couldn’t hear the difference between it and Minimoog V, you probably suffer from hearing damage.wwjd wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:47 pmBravo here!! This. All the way. I enjoy more of life NOT chasing perfectionism.wagtunes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:17 pm
I think most people care to a point. If it's close (subjective term) that's good enough. I think the minority of the population is to the point where every envelope has to be 100% spot on and the osc waveform has to look identical to the hardware unit, not that that's even possible in some cases where the hardware is notorious for fluctuations in its sound from one instrument to another and even from one day to another.
I'm not that anal. But yes, I expect the "Gary Numan Cars Patch" on my Xils PolyM to sound close enough to where I'm saying to myself, "Yep, that's the sound."
The only emulations I've ever heard that were 100% identical were the Korg synths in the legacy collection such as the Wavestation, because it's literally the same software. I owned a Wavestation and can honestly say there is no difference in the sound.
But that's where it ends. Every other emulation I've ever purchased is not 100% identical to the hardware.
I don't care.
YMMV
But I still enjoyed plugins. Lot’s of great stuff. Zebra 2, Dimension Pro, etc. Then Diva came out. Not as good as the ATC, but it was a leap forward. There’s a reason we still talk about it, even though it’s still on version one. It really wasn’t until RePro that I thought, “ah, we’re so close now.” Perfect? No, but as good, just different. I’m fine with that, but if you think that RePro wasn’t a step up in quality from Prophet V, again, you probably suffer from hearing damage. But now we have Prophet 5 V. As good as RePro, but closer. I can get it to sound identical to my Prophet 6 (which of course isn’t quite a vintage Prophet 5). If it wasn’t for the extra filter and other features, I’d ditch the Prophet 6. It’s that good.
Anyway, if you want to cheap out and think that your developer of choice that spits out a new emulation like I shave, have at it. Cool sounds definitely can be made, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that much more money for something that’s noticeably better, if you have the ability to notice things.
Sure, I agree with all that, but with the caveat that in the end, we are talking about an emulation of an analog synthesizer. Of course that means a lot different things to different people, but I expect some characteristics to be there (no aliasing, a full spectrum if the original had a filter that opened up all the way without modulation. (some didn't, like the Prophet 5) So you could say the OG Wavestation (I had one too, the SR) is "better" than the plugin because the plugin uses full 16 bit waveforms, and the original hardware had them truncated to 12 bit, but in that case, I actually preferred the cleaner sound of the software. Same holds true for the Synclavier. I'm glad the Arturia version is cleaner than the original. It makes it a better synth, though a "worse" emulation.wagtunes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:39 pmThere's another way to look at it. Let's say you're right, that some synths just don't sound as good as others, which I absolutely feel is true. Those "inferior" synths still have a character to them. Some, uniquely so. I have a ton of "bad sounding" synths that I still use because they have something I like about them. Korg Wavestation is a perfect example of this. In actuality, the samples in that thing sound horrible compared to what you can get today. But they have a unique character that you just know it's a Wavestation.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:35 amThere’s a tendency here with people who conflate the quest for quality with the quest for perfectionism. Of course there’s no such thing as a perfect emulation, especially when we’re talking about electronics made at a time when tolerances were not great and and definitely not improving over decades. That said, computers can process a lot more than they did a few decades ago. I was away from analog for a long time, but when I got back into it, I quickly saw what the fuss was about. A good analog synth has a character that can be really special. Similar in a way to how a good acoustic instruments feels and sounds. This was around 2005, and analog emulations weren’t that great, so I picked up a Studio Electronics ATC-1. (2 oscillator synth based on cloned Minimoog circuits) So good. If you couldn’t hear the difference between it and Minimoog V, you probably suffer from hearing damage.wwjd wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:47 pmBravo here!! This. All the way. I enjoy more of life NOT chasing perfectionism.wagtunes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:17 pm
I think most people care to a point. If it's close (subjective term) that's good enough. I think the minority of the population is to the point where every envelope has to be 100% spot on and the osc waveform has to look identical to the hardware unit, not that that's even possible in some cases where the hardware is notorious for fluctuations in its sound from one instrument to another and even from one day to another.
I'm not that anal. But yes, I expect the "Gary Numan Cars Patch" on my Xils PolyM to sound close enough to where I'm saying to myself, "Yep, that's the sound."
The only emulations I've ever heard that were 100% identical were the Korg synths in the legacy collection such as the Wavestation, because it's literally the same software. I owned a Wavestation and can honestly say there is no difference in the sound.
But that's where it ends. Every other emulation I've ever purchased is not 100% identical to the hardware.
I don't care.
YMMV
But I still enjoyed plugins. Lot’s of great stuff. Zebra 2, Dimension Pro, etc. Then Diva came out. Not as good as the ATC, but it was a leap forward. There’s a reason we still talk about it, even though it’s still on version one. It really wasn’t until RePro that I thought, “ah, we’re so close now.” Perfect? No, but as good, just different. I’m fine with that, but if you think that RePro wasn’t a step up in quality from Prophet V, again, you probably suffer from hearing damage. But now we have Prophet 5 V. As good as RePro, but closer. I can get it to sound identical to my Prophet 6 (which of course isn’t quite a vintage Prophet 5). If it wasn’t for the extra filter and other features, I’d ditch the Prophet 6. It’s that good.
Anyway, if you want to cheap out and think that your developer of choice that spits out a new emulation like I shave, have at it. Cool sounds definitely can be made, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that much more money for something that’s noticeably better, if you have the ability to notice things.
Are there synths that sound better? Sure, infinitely so. But if you want THAT sound, good lucky getting it from another synth. As a former Wavestation hardware owner, I can tell you right now, you won't get it unless you either buy a Wavestation or get the emulation that Korg makes.
As for Cherry Audio, I like the way their stuff sounds. Always have. In fact, I have just about everything they've made and not because I'm looking for cheap stuff. I own plenty of expensive synths such as Omnisphere, Falcon, Zebra 2 and so many others, including sample libraries costing thousands of dollars. In fact, I've spent close to $30,000 since 2014 on this stuff. And with all the top level sounding stuff that I own, I still reach for something like Scroo, which has such a unique sound and is actually free.
Point is, just because something is cheap doesn't mean it's not usable.
At least not for me.
The real test is whether people could do a blind test and tell them apart. I'd say very few if any could get it right every time which tells us that the differences on sound that people sweat over are really tiny in reality.wagtunes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:39 pmThere's another way to look at it. Let's say you're right, that some synths just don't sound as good as others, which I absolutely feel is true. Those "inferior" synths still have a character to them. Some, uniquely so. I have a ton of "bad sounding" synths that I still use because they have something I like about them. Korg Wavestation is a perfect example of this. In actuality, the samples in that thing sound horrible compared to what you can get today. But they have a unique character that you just know it's a Wavestation.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:35 amThere’s a tendency here with people who conflate the quest for quality with the quest for perfectionism. Of course there’s no such thing as a perfect emulation, especially when we’re talking about electronics made at a time when tolerances were not great and and definitely not improving over decades. That said, computers can process a lot more than they did a few decades ago. I was away from analog for a long time, but when I got back into it, I quickly saw what the fuss was about. A good analog synth has a character that can be really special. Similar in a way to how a good acoustic instruments feels and sounds. This was around 2005, and analog emulations weren’t that great, so I picked up a Studio Electronics ATC-1. (2 oscillator synth based on cloned Minimoog circuits) So good. If you couldn’t hear the difference between it and Minimoog V, you probably suffer from hearing damage.wwjd wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:47 pmBravo here!! This. All the way. I enjoy more of life NOT chasing perfectionism.wagtunes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:17 pm
I think most people care to a point. If it's close (subjective term) that's good enough. I think the minority of the population is to the point where every envelope has to be 100% spot on and the osc waveform has to look identical to the hardware unit, not that that's even possible in some cases where the hardware is notorious for fluctuations in its sound from one instrument to another and even from one day to another.
I'm not that anal. But yes, I expect the "Gary Numan Cars Patch" on my Xils PolyM to sound close enough to where I'm saying to myself, "Yep, that's the sound."
The only emulations I've ever heard that were 100% identical were the Korg synths in the legacy collection such as the Wavestation, because it's literally the same software. I owned a Wavestation and can honestly say there is no difference in the sound.
But that's where it ends. Every other emulation I've ever purchased is not 100% identical to the hardware.
I don't care.
YMMV
But I still enjoyed plugins. Lot’s of great stuff. Zebra 2, Dimension Pro, etc. Then Diva came out. Not as good as the ATC, but it was a leap forward. There’s a reason we still talk about it, even though it’s still on version one. It really wasn’t until RePro that I thought, “ah, we’re so close now.” Perfect? No, but as good, just different. I’m fine with that, but if you think that RePro wasn’t a step up in quality from Prophet V, again, you probably suffer from hearing damage. But now we have Prophet 5 V. As good as RePro, but closer. I can get it to sound identical to my Prophet 6 (which of course isn’t quite a vintage Prophet 5). If it wasn’t for the extra filter and other features, I’d ditch the Prophet 6. It’s that good.
Anyway, if you want to cheap out and think that your developer of choice that spits out a new emulation like I shave, have at it. Cool sounds definitely can be made, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that much more money for something that’s noticeably better, if you have the ability to notice things.
Are there synths that sound better? Sure, infinitely so. But if you want THAT sound, good lucky getting it from another synth. As a former Wavestation hardware owner, I can tell you right now, you won't get it unless you either buy a Wavestation or get the emulation that Korg makes.
As for Cherry Audio, I like the way their stuff sounds. Always have. In fact, I have just about everything they've made and not because I'm looking for cheap stuff. I own plenty of expensive synths such as Omnisphere, Falcon, Zebra 2 and so many others, including sample libraries costing thousands of dollars. In fact, I've spent close to $30,000 since 2014 on this stuff. And with all the top level sounding stuff that I own, I still reach for something like Scroo, which has such a unique sound and is actually free.
Point is, just because something is cheap doesn't mean it's not usable.
At least not for me.
I‘d suspect the opposite. He would need an adequate controller though. He would simply get an Osmose and create new sounds for its internal synth, play a CS-80 V (as he would be consulted as expert anyway) and rock on… I have seen him to wiggle his CS-80 keys, though they are not capable of creating a real vibrato… Its about how you control the sound. That is more important than anything else… MPE controllers change the world, not more accurate emulations of old gear…
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