DAWs and 4k, Pros and Cons

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chk071 wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:21 pm I play plenty of old games. :)

Most won't run out of the box in 4K though. There are third party patches for many of them to work in 4K, or on modern CPU's.
On my general usage / gaming PC I have a 27"/1440P monitor.
I have quite a few games in my backlog that won't play nice in 4K. Mostly they're (pre-2010 or so) 3D games that don't have built-in HUD/GUI scaling (or mods that fix it).
I could play most of them in 4K, for native resolution sharpness - but the 2D HUD/GUI elements would then be too small to make them playable.

An example: Neverwinter Nights. It looks noticeably better in native resolution, but even at 27"/1440P, the GUI elements look pretty small (playable but not comfortable). On 27"/4K it would be just unplayable.
Luckily this one got a remaster, with a scalable UI... but it's still an exception among its peers.

For old 2D games, it doesn't matter - you can't play them in a modern native resolution anyway.

When we're talking about games, there are multiple levels of resolution. e.g. the original Neverwinter Nights can run in 4K, the remaster added UI scaling, but the textures still remain at their original (low) resolution.

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I use two 23.6" 1080P monitors, one of which is an LG LED TV & the other an older Samsung computer dedicated (2010 model).

With the RX570 8 Gig Graphics card, https://www.amd.com/en/products/graphics/radeon-rx-570, I can scale to 4K using AMD Virtual Super Resolution, but for practicality’s sake, unless I'm trying to view images beyond 1440p, I stick to either that or 1080P. Generally I stick to 1440P unless the graphics application doesn't scale properly or is difficult to use due to font size. Davinci Resolves separate Fusion application being one example.

With Studio One 4.6 despite the scaling options with Windows 10, Reaktor based ensembles are just no fun to try and use with the smallest elements like text being far too small to read, so 1080P is the only practical option. The same with older plugins with no scalability.
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THE INTRANCER wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:24 pm I use two 23.6" 1080P monitors, one of which is an LG LED TV & the other an older Samsung computer dedicated (2010 model).

With the RX570 8 Gig Graphics card, https://www.amd.com/en/products/graphics/radeon-rx-570, I can scale to 4K using AMD Virtual Super Resolution, but for practicality’s sake, unless I'm trying to view images beyond 1440p, I stick to either that or 1080P. Generally I stick to 1440P unless the graphics application doesn't scale properly or is difficult to use due to font size. Davinci Resolves separate Fusion application being one example.

With Studio One 4.6 despite the scaling options with Windows 10, Reaktor based ensembles are just no fun to try and use with the smallest elements like text being far too small to read, so 1080P is the only practical option. The same with older plugins with no scalability.
Those virtual resolutions make everything less sharp, right?
1440p on 23.6" should be fine (usable) for most (old) plugins [depending on your viewing distance!] - but indeed, those old Reaktor things are REALLY small.

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EnGee wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:44 pm The physical size of 24/27" monitor seems the ideal for small rooms and limited space. I also noticed that the 32"+ monitor is not that comfortable when sitting near! I would never buy 40 or 43" monitor and sitting about one metre away!
I don't know! I don't think I will return it because I don't think 1080p would look the same or better except with the old synths like FM8.
I have been using a 4K 43" TV as my PC monitor for almost two years now, a Linsar, £200 from Richer Sounds with a six year guarantee. I can highly recommend it. My eyes are about 65cm from the screen (I've just measured it). I would never have upgraded to 4K if it was with a smaller monitor. I don't have any scaling problems, using Windows 8.1 with no scaling turned on, it's just like having four 21" 1920 x 1080 monitors joined together. The great thing is that I will never need a larger screen (it would be impossible to use something bigger than 43", at least for me) and I will never need a higher resolution (I have no desire to go to 8K when 8K TVs eventually come down to £200.)

I use FL Studio and it works beautifully, loads of space for multiple VSTs open, the mixer, everything.

So if you are thinking of going for a 43" 4K TV, go for it! When not using my DAW I still find it so much better than two 1920 x 1080 monitors, especially when using multiple Excel spreadsheets, and a browser.

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T-CM11 wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:34 pm
Those virtual resolutions make everything less sharp, right?
1440p on 23.6" should be fine (usable) for most (old) plugins [depending on your viewing distance!] - but indeed, those old Reaktor things are REALLY small.
It doesn't make everything* less sharp, it just allows you to view things in full such as with 2K - 4K hi-res images or even games, but it will make things smaller as you gain real estate that you wouldn't normally have like text. It can actually make things look sharper, but it's mostly in FPS games that you will notice this.

*Text needs to be rescaled for the OS if not vie the programs preferences, should it have any, as otherwise small text will tend to look blurred as you raise the screen scaling.

Plugins that don't scale correctly will have graphical issues if Hi-DPI scaling is set in the tab of instruments, such as like within Studio One. This mainly affects old plugins that don't have Hi-DPI support.

When developing skins for instruments and effect plugins, it's more beneficial to have the ability for this type of scaling feature.
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Thanks for the input everyone :)

Well, I'm even happier now than before! My eyes got used to the new monitor and I feel it is exactly what I needed! Let me explain why!

The quality of the monitor plays essential role. This is a Dell S2721QS model. It is not a high end at all, but it seems the best budget 4k IPS monitor. The colours are great and the fonts are super clear in any resolution. Now, it depends on what I want and need, it seems the perfect size for me. Actually I prefer this than the 32" because I'm about half metre away and the 27" with this sharp font seems great (with 150% scaling or more). Although I'm now in Linux, which has no good scaling so it is native 4k, and I still can read the tiny fonts on File Manager and System menu! But, for more comfortable view, I made Firefox font scaling to 140% (just ctrl + mouse wheel). In Windows and Mac I use 150% or 200% scale. On Mac the font and graphics are slightly better than in Windows, but I'm still using Windows more because of my work (database data entry/maintenance).

For music making now! Some few of my plugins have just very little blurry graphics. This is mostly the old ones as T-CM11 mentioned and some Reason new Racks! FM8, Massive1, Absynth5 is little blurry but still usable at 150% OS scaling. At 200% they look good with very tiny blurry graphics (almost none!). Anyway, Reaktor synths are disappointingly blurry! Still usable but not inviting! While no problem with all u-he synths, half of Rob Papen synths, The Legend, Vital, Massive X, TAL synths, Thorn, PA synths ...etc.

No major problem with any DAW really. Some minor graphics with Cubase and Reason, but with Bitwig and Live there is no problem at all! So, that I'm using Bitwig and Live more than others then Cubase in third place. The size of the monitor and my distance are perfect for me because I can see most of the screen without much eye travelling and zero neck movements! That's why I prefer this size than any bigger size! If I'm 2 metres or more, then it might be 43" is ideal.

Now, for gaming! This is also a reason that I chose 4k monitor! I play now mostly with PS5 and Xbox Series S. Both support 4k and the games looks excellent :) I use Switch which is 1080p and my PC is doing also 1080p (I have nVidia GTX 1060 3GB). Here it is also better to divide 4k on 1080p than 1440p on 1080p (I read that somewhere but sorry I don't remember now). This is the reason that I didn't go for the same Dell model but 27" 1440p which is cheaper also! I had a good AOC VA monitor (the same price as the current one!) it was great for games, but my PS5 didn't support 1440p and it strangely the fans were much loader than now with 4k! I have no idea what is the reason! Maybe scaling up and then down is more intensive than just 4k? I have no idea! (Edit: I think I know why, because the previous monitor supported 144Hz, so my PS5 has 120fps locked! while now, it is just 60Hz, so it is just 60fps).

Oh, in Linux, when I run Bitwig, it is already chose to run at 200% and there is no problem at all running it. It looks amazing as well ;) I love the experience so far :D

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^^^ I've bought LG 27UL850-W ( LG 27UL850-W LED Monitor, IPS, 27", 4K UHD, 3840x2160, VESA DisplayHDR400, Radeon FreeSync, USB Type-C, HDMI, DisplayPort ) it's in the similar price range as your one, and yepp Cubase has a couple of small glitches but nothing serious, have had to recalibrate it at the beginning https://www.monitornerds.com/lg-27ul850-w-revie/ but that was all

ps. yepp it was the problem during the first days
"27-inch 4K screens are incredibly sharp compared to the usual ones we are accustomed to, but it has a few caveats. Small objects like text can become difficult to read for some users, so scaling, no matter how annoying, is at times required. Media and games, on the other hand, are a joy to view in this monitor since lines are noticeably cleaner with almost no detail spared."

it's really incredibly sharp
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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xbitz wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:36 am
it's really incredibly sharp
I told you so :clown:

The LG might have the same panel! They are very similar I guess but the Dell is slightly cheaper here (maybe because it lacks usb-c hub, just two hdmi and one DP. Also audio out of course).

Thanks for the LG review link! Here is the Dell one ;)
https://www.monitornerds.com/dell-s2721qs-review/

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I believe Ableton is built entirely on a scalable UI framework, but you should always keep in mind that the larger the screen resolution, the larger the hit on the entire system's performance. Especially on the GPU.

Nowadays, computer hardware is fairly well optimized for these kinds of resolutions, but in case you're building a new machine for music, you might want to safe a few bucks by not investing heavily on a super powerful 4k ready GPU, for example.

Just some food for thought

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THE INTRANCER wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:28 pm It doesn't make everything* less sharp, it just allows you to view things in full such as with 2K - 4K hi-res images or even games, but it will make things smaller as you gain real estate that you wouldn't normally have like text. It can actually make things look sharper, but it's mostly in FPS games that you will notice this.
I struggle to understand how that works. I mean either something is pixel perfect/100% size or, in this case, it would be a larger resolution scaled down to lower resolution (the monitors physical resolution) which would either make things blur or introduce noise or artifacts depending on the algorithm? I know using higher internal resolution in games leads to a similar effect like anti aliasing does but in a DAW for example with static elements? Surely some interpolation has to happen? Maybe i'm just extra dumb tonight, trying to quit caffeine and holy crap it's miserable.

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gesp wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:29 pm I believe Ableton is built entirely on a scalable UI framework, but you should always keep in mind that the larger the screen resolution, the larger the hit on the entire system's performance. Especially on the GPU.

Nowadays, computer hardware is fairly well optimized for these kinds of resolutions, but in case you're building a new machine for music, you might want to safe a few bucks by not investing heavily on a super powerful 4k ready GPU, for example.

Just some food for thought
I agree that the GPU prices are silly expensive! But you don't need a powerful GPU for 4k. Mid range is more than enough (still expensive though!). So, if you are really in a budget, then maybe a good IPS 1080p monitor would be a great choice if you organise your workflow and tracks :)

For my setup, I don't see a difference in CPU usage between 4k and 1440p. But sure with 1080p resolution, things are getting super fast and responsive. I have spoiled myself though :hihi: and I'm not going back now after seeing this clearance in font and images! It is a joy to read, type and watch 8)

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machine_spirit wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:17 pm
THE INTRANCER wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:28 pm It doesn't make everything* less sharp, it just allows you to view things in full such as with 2K - 4K hi-res images or even games, but it will make things smaller as you gain real estate that you wouldn't normally have like text. It can actually make things look sharper, but it's mostly in FPS games that you will notice this.
I struggle to understand how that works. I mean either something is pixel perfect/100% size or, in this case, it would be a larger resolution scaled down to lower resolution (the monitors physical resolution) which would either make things blur or introduce noise or artifacts depending on the algorithm? I know using higher internal resolution in games leads to a similar effect like anti aliasing does but in a DAW for example with static elements? Surely some interpolation has to happen? Maybe i'm just extra dumb tonight, trying to quit caffeine and holy crap it's miserable.
Absolutely, in the case of DAWs where static images exist, but in the case of Studio One, it can rescale the UI to look the same as it does at 1080P but this doesn't apply to plugins. There is really no benefit of using screen virtualisation unless you are using plugins that use really high resolution graphics and are developing skins for them, such as with UHE's Hive 2 or Synapse Dune 3. I mean, one could try to use 4K video in a DAW if that was the case, but I'd expect problems with that.

With Photoshop, increasing the screen resolution, text does get smaller on a 1080p screen but is it still clear enough to use at 1440p, 18 inches from the screen.

If you are working with Cinema 4D, having greater screen estate is huge benefit as you have control over the programs font size. For music apps, it's really best to stick to 1080P for creating music with VST plugins, to avoid possible scaling issues.
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Stop thinking of displays in terms of resolution and think of pixel density. On computer sized displays (and phones) viewed at close distances this is the key to making everything appear sharp and smooth. And non-gaming 4k doesn’t take a powerful GPU by today’s standards.

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gesp wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:29 pmNowadays, computer hardware is fairly well optimized for these kinds of resolutions, but in case you're building a new machine for music, you might want to safe a few bucks by not investing heavily on a super powerful 4k ready GPU, for example.
The embedded GPUs have been 4K ready for years.

When hardware manufacturers say their GPU is 4K ready, they mean for gaming with 60+ FPS and accelerated raytracing - both are orders of magnitude more demanding than what a DAW does.
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
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> - 4K (high DPI) now works fine in most newest versions of DAWs (hiDPI scaling!), if you're fine with older non-scalable plugins being a bit blurry.

I'm amazed to read this. On win 11, S1, bitwig, reaper, ardour etc DO NOT scale the vst window by default (reaper) or at all (all the others!). This is beyond sad. Perhaps you are on macOS? Or am I missing something?

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