interval quality question

[shugs]

I believe the following might be true: Going from a C to an E is a Major third and hence consonant, BUT going from B sharp to an E is a diminished fourth and is dissonant even though in both cases, the pitches are exactly the same.
Having said that, I would have thought consonance and dissonance would be a function of the actual amplitudes and frequencies of the sound waves, and not what letters one calls a pitch.
Thus, am I left to conclude 'consonance' and 'dissonance' are merely definitions and have little to do with how the two notes actually sound?
I would appreciate any comment. Thank you

[BertKoor]

Me thinks if you cone from B# then you land on D##.

[shugs]

yes, to make a Major third...But my question is what quality is the interval from B sharp to E ? It is a diminished fourth , yes ?

[BertKoor]

Perhaps a less confusing example is C-E vs C-Fb.

Only in 12-tone equal temperament these are the same.
For violin players these are different, not the same frequency but a comma or so apart.

[fmr]

Me thinks if you cone from B# then you land on D##.

No, it still can be an E, as in C# minor.

[fmr]

yes, to make a Major third...But my question is what quality is the interval from B sharp to E ? It is a diminished fourth , yes ?

Yes, it is a diminished fourth. It's the (raised) seventh degree and the third degree in C# minor.

[shugs]

so something doesn't make sense in the way I am being taught (Music theory one). I don't know about violin or non-western music. I have the 12-pitch system and told that the difference between consonance and dissonance is the way they sound. Yet here we have examples where the exact same sound is classified as dissonant or consonant, say C to E vs. C to F flat.

I can certainly live with the definition (counting half steps or looking at the key signature to tell), but I guess I can't live with the blanket statement that a pair of dissonant notes will sound different than a pair of consonant notes, because we have demonstrated counter-examples.

What would have been a better way to explain the difference between dissonance and consonance

[shugs]

Is it possible that C to F flat is not dissonant?....I have been taught that ALL diminished pairs are dissonant, but maybe that is not true if they are enharmonic to a consonant pair ?

[Hink]

so something doesn't make sense in the way I am being taught (Music theory one). I don't know about violin or non-western music. I have the 12-pitch system and told that the difference between consonance and dissonance is the way they sound. Yet here we have examples where the exact same sound is classified as dissonant or consonant, say C to E vs. C to F flat.

I can certainly live with the definition (counting half steps or looking at the key signature to tell), but I guess I can't live with the blanket statement that a pair of dissonant notes will sound different than a pair of consonant notes, because we have demonstrated counter-examples.

What would have been a better way to explain the difference between dissonance and consonance

res ipsa loquitur

The thing it speaks for itself, if one cannot hear dissonance and needs a definition in this layman's perspective you are looking at theory very mistakenly. Dissonance is not about rules, it's about sound and tonality...not learned, felt and can be quite useful.

[BertKoor]

Maybe you need to look at it from a different angle. Look at the whole scale.

Me thinks if the scale is built on the minor third, then it doesn't matter whether you call it a major third or diminished fourth. The note is out of scale. Its usage creates tension that needs to get resolved.

I think that is what consonance & dissonance are about: tension.

[shugs]

I appreciate the comments about 'feeling' the piece, and I gather from the comment about violins and string instruments that there is more than 12 pitches. And I intuitively know that notes aren't restricted to just flats and sharps...e.g. why not have a sharp and a half tone

But I think when one wants to communicate with another person, there needs to be common and consistent definitions of terms. You can't' just say something is 'unresolved' without agreement as to what unresolves means.

So, since you guys are way smarter than me on this (and I mean that seriously), I think there is something lacking in precision in what I am being taught. It doesn't seem to me that in the 12-pitch system

a) all diminished pairs of notes are dissonant as I am being taught that they are. Taking a piano, if I play a C and then a E whilst you play a C followed by a F-flat we are actually hitting the same keys (duh). How can one pair be consonant and the other dissonant 'to the ear' ?

I can accept that the C to F flat is a diminished 4th, because there is agreement as to how a diminished 4th is defined. I think something is breaking down ( in the 12 pitch system) when you have a pair of notes which are enharmonic to another pair of notes in the definition of consonance and dissonance being tied to how they sound

I can also accept that all diminished pairs are dissonant, but then also don't tell me at the same time that they all have an unresolved /tension because they don't ( C to F flat). I think there is something not quite complete in what I am being taught

[vurt]

I appreciate the comments about 'feeling' the piece, and I gather from the comment about violins and string instruments that there is more than 12 pitches. And I intuitively know that notes aren't restricted to just flats and sharps...e.g. why not have a sharp and a half tone

But I think when one wants to communicate with another person, there needs to be common and consistent definitions of terms. You can't' just say something is 'unresolved' without agreement as to what unresolves means.

So, since you guys are way smarter than me on this (and I mean that seriously), I think there is something lacking in precision in what I am being taught. It doesn't seem to me that in the 12-pitch system

a) all diminished pairs of notes are dissonant as I am being taught that they are. Taking a piano, if I play a C and then a E whilst you play a C followed by a F-flat we are actually hitting the same keys (duh). How can one pair be consonant and the other dissonant 'to the ear' ?

I can accept that the C to F flat is a diminished 4th, because there is agreement as to how a diminished 4th is defined. I think something is breaking down ( in the 12 pitch system) when you have a pair of notes which are enharmonic to another pair of notes in the definition of consonance and dissonance being tied to how they sound

its not just tied to how the individual interval sounds, but also in its relationship with the tonic of the scale.

ie c-d in c, is not equal to c-d in dm.

does that help?

[shugs]

sorry, no...I am not seeing what you are saying....c-d is a Major 2nd in either scale and is dissonant in both scales

[shugs]

I don't need to beat a dead horse. I guess everyone agrees C to F flat is dissonant, not because of how it sounds, but because all diminished fourths are defined to be dissonant and it is as simple as that

[vurt]

sorry, no...I am not seeing what you are saying....c-d is a Major 2nd in either scale and is dissonant in both scales

it was an example of two notes, which while the same, have different functions in the scale due to placement.

each scale, many will have the same notes and intervals, but the place in the scale, gives each note and interval a different meaning

c in c is not the same as the c in any other scale, it will feel like the right note for home in c.
the 12 tones are not equal outside of 12 tone serialism.