One Synth Challenge #157: FB-7999 by Full Bucket Music (Voting Started!)

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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schiing
KVRian
540 posts since 27 Oct, 2015

Post Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:32 am

Congrats to Taron, all the participants, and to Björn for another winner!
Aro wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:39 pm
Taron wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:05 am
Oh, no, absolutely. It's not about whether or not music is tied to emotion, that goes without saying. It's about how we explore or arrive at the music we make, like where we draw from. And even there are different phases we go through as we become more well-versed in our ability to compose. Knowing or realizing that it is about communication can help to accept certain conventions and/or break them deliberately. For professionals like you and those, who are merely experienced, like myself, it is much less trouble to "speak music", but many just feel the passion to make music without fully understanding what it really is, occasionally stumbling about in some sort of confusion or afraid to submit to "conventions". Knowing that it is communication helps to accept the idea of musical words, structure, arcs and what they are for. The more our vocabulary increases, the more not only can we express our ideas, but actually recognize and understand our own ideas to the point when things can simply flow through us. "Make stuff pretty" isn't really much of a guidance for many, you know, hehehe. :roll:
I remember how I used to be afraid of conventions, like they were confinements. Took me a long time to realize that they were grammar, really.
Sometimes this forum makes me feel so far away from being an actual musician. I like where I come from. I love that musical impulse that comes from not knowing what I'm doing at all. I like my simplicity. I realize I have room to improve, but I also realize that I never want to know the language fluently, because I'd never surprise myself. Rules, conventions, I'm not sure I want to learn them. Just use my ears. Not intellectualize. I think its a lot easier to break a rule if you don't know it in the first place. Just my opinion.
Ooh, we're more or less polar opposites here, Aro. Not in the sense that "I'm so clever and I know all the rules", mind you! There are so many things I don't know, it's scary. But I'm a sponge, musical knowledge is the ultimate liquid, and I love to learn about new stuff. And for each new thing I learn, new and untraveled roads will appear - stuff I never even imagined before.

I don't think knowledge will stifle your imagination or your musical freedom. Sure, the convenience of an orderly argument, barricading yourself in an ivory tower, hiding behind highfalutin jargon, putting all your faith in a particular theory, or presenting yourself as some sort of Super Locrian superhero - all of those things might do that. But never knowledge in and of itself.

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but reading your comment I get the feeling that you willfully close your eyes and ears to the world at large in order to maintain a pure and unfiltered musical mind within. That seems counterintuitive to me. A bit like settling for a tangible strait jacket to avoid an imaginary one.

But apologies in advance – I'm probably overthinking your original points to build a platform for my own hot takes. That's the internet for you!
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MilksterX
KVRist
152 posts since 27 Oct, 2020

Post Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:48 am

Hi for a prize I'd like scratch master pro & the yuli yoli soundset also. Huge thanks again for all your votes ❤️ and to Rich, BJ & Bjorn.

empphryio
KVRist
384 posts since 14 Apr, 2019

Post Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:19 am

I have been watching a lot of YouTube tutorials etc and experimenting with different ways to go about things and it's possible to really take a step back. To wander away from what you loved in the first place. There is a sense of someone whispering in your ear what comes next that you can learn to ignore until you can't hear it anymore because you were so caught up in following certain "rules"/structures.

Someone mentioned feeling like it was already written and you're just discovering it. I used to feel that way sometimes. Reminds me of Dead Can Dance btw. My time recently trying to learn from others has been ... so far negative.

treeheated
KVRist
39 posts since 1 Mar, 2021

Post Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:35 am

Taron wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:00 am Ah, you did that flower shooter soundtrack, hehehe, that was awesome! :hyper:
I just went through your SC stuff. I had no idea you were participating in so many OSCs. It's like while I dropped off the radar, you appeared and stayed on. Loads of fun tracks, really. Seems to me like you're quite true to your style and there's no need whatsoever to depart from it either! VERY Enjoyable! :tu:
Oh! I've been here over a year! And I just realized this was my 10th time taking part! Thank you for your kind words. I'm totally up for making the flower shooter for a game jam or something.

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Taron
KVRAF
2896 posts since 17 Apr, 2010 from Croatia

Post Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:00 am

treeheated wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:35 am
Taron wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:00 am Ah, you did that flower shooter soundtrack, hehehe, that was awesome! :hyper:
I just went through your SC stuff. I had no idea you were participating in so many OSCs. It's like while I dropped off the radar, you appeared and stayed on. Loads of fun tracks, really. Seems to me like you're quite true to your style and there's no need whatsoever to depart from it either! VERY Enjoyable! :tu:
Oh! I've been here over a year! And I just realized this was my 10th time taking part! Thank you for your kind words. I'm totally up for making the flower shooter for a game jam or something.
:lol: I swear, I was already thinking about it, too! Just a little javascript game... how fun would that be?! :hyper:


empphryio wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:19 am I have been watching a lot of YouTube tutorials etc and experimenting with different ways to go about things and it's possible to really take a step back. To wander away from what you loved in the first place. There is a sense of someone whispering in your ear what comes next that you can learn to ignore until you can't hear it anymore because you were so caught up in following certain "rules"/structures.

Someone mentioned feeling like it was already written and you're just discovering it. I used to feel that way sometimes. Reminds me of Dead Can Dance btw. My time recently trying to learn from others has been ... so far negative.
That's just the thing, it's not about anything like "rules", but concepts that provide orientation. Easiest and most constant companion of those concepts is the circle of 5th. Use it and play with it almost in a geometric fashion, just having those standard relations in mind and you'll be able to construct such complex harmonies and progressions that make sense. You can formulate complex chords by picking notes from related harmonies and puzzle them together, for example. Or you can dissect the chord you chose to figure out what actual harmonies it may represent or leads to.

Key, I find, to taking charge in your composition, is to formulate certain patterns for yourself, which you may try to adhere to, just so you can lead your listener and they'll always know where you are, for example. Likewise you can use it to create the opposite, but you really want to offer some type of satisfaction, normally, because you are a listener to your own music, too, haha.

By patterns I mean anything, from time based intervals (rhythm) to note based intervals (harmonies/scales) and how the match or interact. Those can be tiny, within a single beat, or larger over several measures, but they will be recognizable in some way by their nature.

Mistakes that happen to all musicians, regardless the level of expertise, is to accept something that's only happening in their imagination, when they listen to what they've made already, but they forget that the actual listener has no idea about it. If you provide a solid pattern, a motive that one can perceive and hold on to, those mistakes, those forgotten elements, they won't become a problem, because the listener has not lost their connection to your composition.

On the other hand, patterns can inspire you, too, to drive a composition forward. Okay, I'm on the verge of writing way too much.
Point is: It's not RULES, but guidance by means of concepts that are part of our musical evolution.

empphryio
KVRist
384 posts since 14 Apr, 2019

Post Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:06 am

The use of quotes means I understand that it's not really rules. Thanks very much for your worthwhile thoughts though.

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Taron
KVRAF
2896 posts since 17 Apr, 2010 from Croatia

Post Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:11 am

No, no, it was a perfect setup, because I do really think that this misconception is also in the heart of the dislike for music theory. Not like people couldn't get a clue out of the word "theory" already, hehehe, but then most rarely do. :roll:

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silverpants
KVRist
87 posts since 4 Jan, 2022

Post Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:50 am

] Peter:H [ wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:19 am
Aro wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:39 pm
Sorry for the mocking. It's easter holiday and my brain was bored so I came up with this insidious stuff just to be the anti-thesis and make the thesis shine.
Ha. Your bored brain is amusing! :)
Captain Silverpants

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silverpants
KVRist
87 posts since 4 Jan, 2022

Post Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:46 am

Aro wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:39 pm
Taron wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:05 am
Sometimes this forum makes me feel so far away from being an actual musician. I like where I come from. I love that musical impulse that comes from not knowing what I'm doing at all. I like my simplicity. I realize I have room to improve, but I also realize that I never want to know the language fluently, because I'd never surprise myself. Rules, conventions, I'm not sure I want to learn them. Just use my ears. Not intellectualize. I think its a lot easier to break a rule if you don't know it in the first place. Just my opinion.
A lot of this resonates with me Aro. With you there. I try not to learn too much theory - or I feel I make too many conventional decisions. I try to play from the heart. But I appreciate that some people love learning all the theory - and are able to use that as a strength of course. Good thing about music is there is not one way of approaching it.
Captain Silverpants

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Taron
KVRAF
2896 posts since 17 Apr, 2010 from Croatia

Post Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:02 am

silverpants wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:46 am
Aro wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:39 pm
Taron wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:05 am
Sometimes this forum makes me feel so far away from being an actual musician. I like where I come from. I love that musical impulse that comes from not knowing what I'm doing at all. I like my simplicity. I realize I have room to improve, but I also realize that I never want to know the language fluently, because I'd never surprise myself. Rules, conventions, I'm not sure I want to learn them. Just use my ears. Not intellectualize. I think its a lot easier to break a rule if you don't know it in the first place. Just my opinion.
A lot of this resonates with me Aro. With you there. I try not to learn too much theory - or I feel I make too many conventional decisions. I try to play from the heart. But I appreciate that some people love learning all the theory - and are able to use that as a strength of course. Good thing about music is there is not one way of approaching it.
It's so difficult to explain, but it's about understanding, not about learning stuff and regurgitating it then. How many "blue notes" do ruin an otherwise beautiful track, because the composer couldn't think of what was wrong with it. No way they wanted those notes to be so painfully off. It's just that in their mind it was the closest thing to what their heart told them, hehe, just accepting it. In reality, with just a tiny bit of understanding, this would've not gone wrong. And I mean: wrong! Actually, with enough understanding you could even save certain questionable moments by catching them otherwise with the impression that you knew what you were doing. That's often key to an enjoyable listen: Trusting the composer.

But that's just the tip of the iceberg. The more you understand, the more you can let yourself go. It's like being dropped into a maze with plenty of exists to different locations you may want to go to. Understanding the theory is like having a map to that maze. You can totally move freely, follow your heart with certainty and allow yourself any adventure as you change paths deliberately, even as you know the map. But without it, you may well end up stumbling from dead end to dead end. Not like it couldn't eventually get you there, if you have exceptional sense of orientation and persistence, but you certainly will get lost in ways you would've wanted to avoid, had you known any better.
In virtually every relevant way I am self-taught, while mostly based on intuition and then experience, but happily picking up bits of wisdom along the way. This goes for everything I've ever done and am still doing. Any stoic way of trying to memorize instructions was never part of my exploration. I couldn't even accept a mathematical formula into my set of mind-tools unless I did understand every component of it to a deep enough level that I could learn more from it than its application's result.
Deal with music that way and you will "sense" the maze, even where the map ends!

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cdbaksu
KVRist
37 posts since 25 Jan, 2021

Post Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:18 am

Taron wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:02 am It's like being dropped into a maze with plenty of exists to different locations you may want to go to. Understanding the theory is like having a map to that maze. You can totally move freely, follow your heart with certainty and allow yourself any adventure as you change paths deliberately, even as you know the map. But without it, you may well end up stumbling from dead end to dead end. Not like it couldn't eventually get you there, if you have exceptional sense of orientation and persistence, but you certainly will get lost in ways you would've wanted to avoid, had you known any better.
Love this analogy, and wholeheartedly agree!

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Yadrichik_Chaya
KVRist
173 posts since 5 Oct, 2021

Post Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:35 am

Jumping in to the discussion with the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr3quGh7pJA

Well worth looking at - 45 minutes long video by Adam Neely about western music theory and White Supremacy (the harmonic style of 18th century european musicians) :hihi:

And if we leave the dark side of western music theory for a moment and just go by the ethical behaviour found in modern music: many famous virtuosos in all fields/genres also happen to have stolen their ”genius” songs and ideas from lesser known musicians, addicted to cocaine and other shit, beat up women and other crazy things etc. So basically just a bunch of talented but arrogant assholes…but hey these virtuosos can apparently make people feel good and that is all that matters… :hihi:

See how I reversed the whole thing regarding feelings? ;)

Thank god I can improv with my fretless guitar to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgnSVIYs9pc

But I'm not saying theory is bad, just saying that there is a whole world (pun intended) outside the western music theory :tu:
I play World music too, I'm just not sure which world it's from... :lol:

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cdbaksu
KVRist
37 posts since 25 Jan, 2021

Post Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:41 am

I believe what you describe applies in every other discipline, and you can even make analogous statements about how there's a whole world of kite flying out there, not just the vast knowledge and immense engineering efforts it takes to make a 747 fly.

IV!
KVRist
460 posts since 31 Oct, 2019

Post Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:11 am

cdbaksu wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:41 am I believe what you describe applies in every other discipline, and you can even make analogous statements about how there's a whole world of kite flying out there, not just the vast knowledge and immense engineering efforts it takes to make a 747 fly.
Right! If enough scientists had seriously studied kites throughout the entire existence of aviation, we could now have a completely different fleet of small-large aircraft, perhaps much safer, more comfortable and economical! :wink: It's just that someone once decided that it was convenient enough not to invent anything else. But I'm not sure that Boeing (and modern aircraft in general) this is the perfect solution, that Western music theory is the best for finding and perceiving music, that my toilet paper holder has already been perfected... there are just accepted standards, but for us, inquisitive minds, this is only an incentive to study something else!
For myself, I have now chosen the path to remain on the foothold of Western theory, bringing elements of other musical ecosystems into it as I study, my dream on this path is to find/creating a general theory of music that would link everything that can be called music into a single system.

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Yadrichik_Chaya
KVRist
173 posts since 5 Oct, 2021

Post Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:13 am

cdbaksu wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:41 am I believe what you describe applies in every other discipline, and you can even make analogous statements about how there's a whole world of kite flying out there, not just the vast knowledge and immense engineering efforts it takes to make a 747 fly.
So music theory is super advanced technology :D

Does this also mean that music theory experts have purer and more refined emotions/thoughts?

Surely a recluse who only meditates in silence in a forest or a cave has purer emotions/thoughts compared to someone who is rhythmically blowing/pressing/picking/bowing and beating on an instrument via a theory etc. :P

If you look at the video you see that those behind the Western Music Theory has very close ties to all those fascist psychopaths and their ”ideas”… Thought it be good if people knew this and would broaden their horizons to other types of music around the world that also sometimes happen to be more advanced than western music, but can the western music theory explain these styles of music?
I play World music too, I'm just not sure which world it's from... :lol:

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