Toontrack Superior Drummer 3. Too much bleed in the overheads?

[an-electric-heart]

I know Toontrack have their own forum (I might ask there too), but I also know a lot of people here use SD3, so I wanted to chat about something.

I'm working on a couple of songs with SD3 right now. I've always been reluctant to play with the bleed amount in the overheads as I assume the default level of bleed is how a "real" kit would be when recording with real drums in a real studio, but there's just way too much, when the overhead level is right for ride and crashed, the hats and snare bleed in the overheads is way too loud and overwhelm the actual closed mics for those drums.
Anyway, I just wanted to discuss this and discuss in particular if SD3 users regularly need to turn the bleed in the overheads down.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Depends on the style of music and drum sound you're after. For instance, when I think a lot of mid to late 70's sounds, drum rooms were tight, direct mics made up most of the sound, and the overheads were just there to capture the cymbals and mixed low. That probably continued throughout the 80s. But over the years, the overheads and drum rooms came back up and became part of the drum sound again. Nowadays, the overheads and room mics aren't there to record the cymbals, they're capturing the sound of the drums in the room. You can get a very nice, balanced, realistic sounding drum kit with lots of OH and Room mics. But if you're not going for that sound, then, yeah, don't mix that way. You can bring down the overheads and the room, or just the individual channels in those mics. Do what sounds right for capturing the sound in your head. Me? I like a lot of overheads and room mics on the drums. I want to hear them, with the direct microphones there to reenforce them and provide the beef. But if that's not your thing, do whatever.

[jamcat]

^^That's how I approach drums too.
I disagree about '70s drums, though. I think '70s production was all about room sound for big rock drums. Post-punk/New Wave is when drums and everything else started getting stripped back and removed from context.

[noiseboyuk]

Here's the thing. SD3 allows for things that are not possible in the real world, including solving problems that engineers have been trying to solve since forever. In this respect, SD3 is BETTER than a real drummer in a really good room.

So what in fact happens very often is that when studio recording, drummers and engineers cheat. They often don't want all that other stuff swimming around in the overheads, so they do multiple passes. Nice clean cymbals. Then they can dial in just the right amount they need of the overheads in the main kit.

Here's an example of the technique in action - the Danish band Mew, recording their stunning Glass Handed Kite album. For some reason linking the exact time stamps isn't working correctly for me today, so here's the right time stamps if you want to zip to the exact moments:

25:36 - First passes (main kit and hi-hat)
27:12 - Second pass (cymbals)

https://youtu.be/LFjp7EB-U5Y?t=1551

(Phenomenal drummer)

In other words - do whatever you want to get whatever sound you want, and revel in the luxury you have in SD3 compared to the real thing!

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

^^That's how I approach drums too.
I disagree about '70s drums, though. I think '70s production was all about room sound for big rock drums.

Maybe in the early 70's and with bands like Led Zeppelin, but the 70's was also disco (bone dry), 70's radio-friendly rock like the Eagles (not huge, roomy drum sounds), the start of punk (generally dry), etc. That's why I specifically called out the late 70's. I'd say it was generally a drier drum sound.

[noiseboyuk]

To add to my post above, I just noticed EZDrummer 3 also has some control over this. It varies from kit to kit, but on the factory kits there's always a way to reduce the drums in the overheads. Shows just what a common issue it is I guess.

[an-electric-heart]

To add to my post above, I just noticed EZDrummer 3 also has some control over this. It varies from kit to kit, but on the factory kits there's always a way to reduce the drums in the overheads. Shows just what a common issue it is I guess.

Yes, but that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying SD3 seems to by default have exaggerated bleed in the overheads, I always need to turn the bleed down about 50%. I think the default level the bleed is set at is unnatural, when the default starting point when you fire it up should be how a real kit would be... but again, I might be wrong... that's what I'm asking. I'm asking: Do people think the bleed levels in the SD3 overheads are set too high by default?

[noiseboyuk]

To add to my post above, I just noticed EZDrummer 3 also has some control over this. It varies from kit to kit, but on the factory kits there's always a way to reduce the drums in the overheads. Shows just what a common issue it is I guess.

Yes, but that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying SD3 seems to by default have exaggerated bleed in the overheads, I always need to turn the bleed down about 50%. I think the default level the bleed is set at is unnatural, when the default starting point when you fire it up should be how a real kit would be... but again, I might be wrong... that's what I'm asking. I'm asking: Do people think the bleed levels in the SD3 overheads are set too high by default?

No, I think it’s totally accurate. It’s a 100% realistic re-creation of what is very often a problem. Which is why I posted that Mew video - that’s how they often get round it in studio recordings.

[noiseboyuk]

In short - drums are really frickin loud. Put a mic over them all and they’ll sound really frickin loud in that mic. Only close-micing drums can significantly eliminate the other drums, but you can’t do that for cymbals so - there we are.

[rollasoc]

The Mew thing kind of points to the solution maybe?
Mute the offending channels and render out the overheads without them.
When mixing, mix in the original overheads for the bleed you want and then bring in the new file for the ride / crash

Not tried it, might be rubbish?

[noiseboyuk]

The Mew thing kind of points to the solution maybe?
Mute the offending channels and render out the overheads without them.
When mixing, mix in the original overheads for the bleed you want and then bring in the new file for the ride / crash

Not tried it, might be rubbish?

Just unnecessary, that's the beauty of virtual - simply take down the bleeds and it does the same thing.

The ambience mics are even better for playing around with this sort of thing.

[ruslan.st]

I've always been reluctant to play with the bleed amount in the overheads as I assume the default level of bleed is how a "real" kit would be when recording with real drums in a real studio, but there's just way too much, when the overhead level is right for ride and crashed, the hats and snare bleed in the overheads is way too loud and overwhelm the actual closed mics for those drums.

I got the same question using other drum libraries. Watched various videos about mic techniques on youtube, and in live drumming examples overheads sound way more balanced than in sample libraries. Maybe balance gets broken during sampling session because drummer does single isolated hits and cannot hear context of other kit pieces? If he would play complete part he would hear whole balance and adjust his playing dynamics. Maybe "right" solution is to adjust midi data first and only if that does not help - adjust overheads balance.

[niterateaudio]

Good discussion. I usually reduce the OH a lot in other libraries I use. I think it's common issue. I started using 8Dio libraries and pay around with the trash mic a lot.

[counterparty]

You don't necessarily have to use the direct hi-hat mic - depending on the recordings you're mixing it can be a better option to just use the hihat from the overheads.

[jamcat]

^^That's how I approach drums too.
I disagree about '70s drums, though. I think '70s production was all about room sound for big rock drums.

Maybe in the early 70's and with bands like Led Zeppelin, but the 70's was also disco (bone dry), 70's radio-friendly rock like the Eagles (not huge, roomy drum sounds), the start of punk (generally dry), etc. That's why I specifically called out the late 70's. I'd say it was generally a drier drum sound.

I get what you’re saying. And even thinking about ‘70s easy listening like Captain & Tennelle, you’re right. Not only were drums dry, they were also exceptionally dead.