Have we reached the end of hardware synths with software plug-ins?

[hebex]

So unless I'm very much mistaken, software wins

You are mistaken.

[Uncle E]

I just made a post in another forum to a guy that seem to had found peace of mind in using RePro and Obsession, the following: "I envy you for finding RePro and Obsession good enough for your needs. I definately not, which cost me a lot of time, money and frustration. But that´s partly why these forums exist, I guess..."

Get a Roland SE-02. Cheap and sounds as good as many classic Moogs. Monophonic but just record the voicings in separate passes or use arpeggios and delays to fake polyphony. It's easier than you might be imagining.

I've owned most of the legendary analogs but my best sounding tracks were done with a Studio Electronics ATC-1, which is nearly the same sound as the SE-02.

[Uncle E]

My wife was gifted a piano and quality lessons at age eight, but the sicko older siblings were jealous, and tormented at every opportunity, which sadly had a lasting effect.

Sorry to hear it. That's a sad story.

[hebex]

I just made a post in another forum to a guy that seem to had found peace of mind in using RePro and Obsession, the following: "I envy you for finding RePro and Obsession good enough for your needs. I definately not, which cost me a lot of time, money and frustration. But that´s partly why these forums exist, I guess..."

Get a Roland SE-02. Cheap and sounds as good as many classic Moogs. Monophonic but just record the voicings in separate passes or use arpeggios and delays to fake polyphony. It's easier than you might be imagining.

I've owned most of the legendary analogs but my best sounding tracks were done with a Studio Electronics ATC-1, which is nearly the same sound as the SE-02.

It sounds good, I checked it out a while ago. But my next hardware synth, if I get one, will be polyphonic. My brain works polyphonically in music making and although I get the monophonic thing logically, it takes the spontaneity away for me. It´s using the wrong half of brain, so to say.

[BONES]

you realise there's probably more analog hardware being sold now than at any other time in the past 40 years?

Yeah but it used to be 100% of the market, now it's probably less than 1%, in terms of units. (Obviously a lot more in terms of dollars). Which is to say that the whole market today is much bigger than it's ever been. And hardware is absurdly cheap now compared to 40 years ago. I paid $450 for a new SH-101 in 1985, which is the 2022 equivalent for more than $1200. That's twice as much as Behringer's knock-off. Then there are amazing proper analogue synths like Uno Pro for a tiny fraction of what you'd have paid for something similar 40 years ago.

So yeah, of course they sell more these days - bigger market, much cheaper prices.

Yeah, Korg, Roland etc making vastly more money from hardware is a safety net.

Do you know for a fact that they make more money from hardware? After all, it costs them a lot more to make 1000 units of a particular hardware synth than it does 1000 units of any particular softsynth and the teams designing hardware would be bigger, too - software developers plus electrical engineers.

I bet Roland make more money from Boss pedals than most software companies make at all.

Probably but does Boss make them more money than Roland Cloud? More revenue, perhaps, but maybe not more profit. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I think it's impossible to know without looking at their balance sheets. But when Korg are so quick to release software versions of OpSix and WaveState, when I'd have thought the hardware would still be selling OK, it makes me wonder if hardware really is that profitable for them.

Software emulations are cool, always waiting for computers to catch up tho, for that last few %

I think computers caught up years ago and are now streaking ahead. e.g. Arturia's SEM is a pretty good emulation of the original, with a few extras that make it even better than a real SEM, which has been around for ages but bx_oberhausen with up to 32 voice unison, just knocks it out of the park. And you can't set the standard as making it sound exactly like the original because that has never been an expectation of hardware, so it's not fair or reasonable. In fact, a lot of classic hardware couldn't even emulate itself from one year to the next. e.g. ARP Odyssey had three different filters over its model run so if your old Odyssey was stolen and you bought a new one, it wouldn't necessarily sound the same any more.

Google is your friend…
https://www.rolanddg.com/en/investors/h ... erformance

... until it makes you look stupid.

a) Roland's musical instrument business doesn't even get a mention anywhere that I looked on that site. I think it must be a separate business altogether. But apparently Roland are into dental equipment. Who knew?

b) Google is the enemy.

[Uncle E]

It sounds good, I checked it out a while ago. But my next synth, if I get one, will be polyphonic. My brain works polyphonically in music making and although I get the monophonic thing logically, it takes the spontaneity away for me. It´s using the wrong half of brain, so to say.

Sure, fair enough. Minilogue XD is great (big improvement over the regular Minilogue). The Poly D is quite good if you can handle not having presets.

[Uncle E]

Probably but does Boss make them more money than Roland Cloud? More revenue, perhaps, but maybe not more profit. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I think it's impossible to know without looking at their balance sheets.

The build cost for most Boss pedals has to be under $10.

b) Google is the enemy.

Preach

[ramseysounds]

So unless I'm very much mistaken, software wins

You are mistaken.

No, I'm not

[teilo]

the synth voices interact with each other

?

Richtig?

[fisherKing]

that is the most ridiculous thing i've read on this forum in a long time (and that's saying a lot).

gonna have to step my game up.

He obviously hasn't been exposed to your best work.

more that i was so overwhelmed by vurt's best, that my mind is now a blank (which would explain my own posts)....

[BONES]

My guess is that as long as there are keyboard players, there will be hardware synths.

When you put it like that, it feels even more wrong. I think that right now an experienced keyboard player probably prefers a big hardware synth because that's familiar and comfortable for them but in 20 years time, the majority of people doing this will have grown up on MIDI controllers and I think it's likely they'll love their favourite MIDI controller as much as you love your favourite hardware synth today.

It's just a matter of what's in your wallet regarding what you'll buy.

I think that might determine whether you buy an Arturia MicroLab for a $100 or a KeyLab Mk2 88-Key with Hammer Action for $1000. Or maybe a top of the line NI Komplete Kontrol for two grand.
That said, I don't think you're right at all. I could easily afford to buy anything I wanted to but I don't see any need to spend a lot of money on expensive gear. e.g. I can afford the most expensive MIDI controller money can buy but I'm much happier with my $150 KeyStep. It does everything I need it to do. I was recently contemplating a pair of Genelec monitors, which I can easily afford, but decided I like my sub-$200 JBL 104s just fine. If I had to spend $1000 to get the monitors I need, I'd happily do it but the reality is that I don't have to spend anywhere near that and I see no reason to throw money away.

[BONES]

Actually, more and more people will work with computers (daily job), sometimes/often remotely. I feel like some people who doesn't work this way, can't understand that after 8h in front of computer, then watching Netflix, playing games etc. day by day, makes people tired of computers and computer screen.

I don't see it. I spend 9 hours a day in front of a computer at work, yet the first thing I do when I get home is sit down in front of my laptop and fire it up. I can't wait to get into it. The two experiences are poles apart for me, the only thing they have in common is that I use a R.A.T. 4+ mouse with both computers.

Hardware is good escape from it.

Hardware is a pain in the f**king arse. It feels more like work than sitting in front of my laptop.

Exactly. The most computer literate person a know, a head programmer at Pixar who's spent his entire life in front of computer screens, loves making music with hardware. My daughter has been coding since she was 5 and she sits down in front of our piano (not even my keyboards!) when she wants to take a break from the computer. Many such cases.

OTOH, most people I know will play a game on their computer, or watch a bit of YouTube, as a distraction/break from work. The only people I know who still prefer their hardware are people who've always had hardware and the only household I know with a piano in it doesn't contain anyone who knows how to play it or has any interest in learning. (It was inherited.)

[BONES]

I predict that we will eventually see a new generation of keyboard/controllers to make virtual synths just as much a pleasure to use as the hardware:

Mine already are, thanks to Roli.

Yeah, hardware is dead and software killed it, yet my Sweetwater catalog has more pages of hardware synths than ever,

Maybe that's indicative of a failing industry diversifying in an attempt to find a new niche that works for their business?

synths are backordered, retail prices are increasing due to supply/demand

No, prices are increasing due to a global semiconductor shortage that is affecting dozens of industries. e.g. New car wait times are out to 2+ years for some popular models and BMW are shipping cars without infotainment systems, which they will retrofit when they can get hold of them.

people are offering me far more than I paid for most of my synths

I call bullshit on this. I pretty much always lose a shit-ton of money when I can can even find someone to buy any of my old hardware, all of which is in pristine, as-new condition.

WTF is the point of these threads anyway? To make people who can't afford or figure out how to use a hardware synth feel less insecure or something?

I think it's more so that lunatics like you don't give people a totally false impression of what's valuable and what's not.

Because, as someone who spent roughly 20 years working exclusively with hardware and the last 20 years working with software and hardware, if someone were to ask my advice I would tell them straight up that hardware is a waste of time, energy and money and they shouldn't bother with it at all. And if they pointed out to me that I have a lot of hardware, I'd admit that it's purely down to habit, that none of my hardware synths are really worth owning, that the decisions to buy them were impulsive and illogical and I regret each and every one of them. And every word of that is true. Hardware doesn't sound as good, it's nowhere near as reliable or portable and maintenance costs can be horrendous, even if it never breaks.

if money want an issue I suspect most people would prefer hardware…that’s why the majority of plug-ins look like and are essential fake hardware.

Then you suspect wrong. There is nothing about hardware, not one tiny thing, that I find preferable to software. If I look at my three favourite hardware synths - Waldorf Rocket, Uno Pro and Ultranova, they are all shit compared to even the freeware VSTi I use. The first two are monophonic or paraphonic, where GR-8 (for example) is properly polyphonic. Ultranova is monotimbral, where I can load up as many instances of GR-8 as I like, each playing a different patch. Rocket has no effects and Uno Pro only has very basic effects, where GR-8 has a good suite of really nice effects.

Of the three, Ultranova is the standout best because it's unashamedly digital, which makes it much more like a softsynth than the other two. It turns out that the qualities/features of softsynths are far more desirable than anything most hardware synths have to offer.

[ROTMetro]

Um, yeah, was not the issue in my household. You relate a miserable sounding world, but it's the opposite of my experience. Kids today, because everything is always changing, share all of their mistakes and learning together. They are way more supportive of each other. Their whole lives are online, and sharing how to use the latest app/software/whatever is a natural part of who they are, everything is always changing in their world. My daughter and her friends wrote shared stories together from shared google docs, wrote shared music together, made stupid internet videos together. Never once were they concerned that any of it wasn't good enough or had to be hidden. Her generation is the exact opposite of what you are saying in my experience. It's more about the sharing and the journey than the ending. Dude, Soundcloud rappers. Need I say more. If anything, maybe that generation could share a little less. And no encouragement? Maybe you are projecting?
My daughter simply didn't relate to the piano, and I don't think future generations will in as large a numbers as in the past. That isn't some big, depressing revelation about modern life. It's just a switch from a 750lb 17th century tools in a world with more capable 21st century tools.
Take time to learn the clunky interface and programming the DX7/TX81/Akai, and here are some really dated sounds you can use on the XP80, and let me explain MIDI channels and how to use the sequencer or just start making stuff on the computer? No brainer. And it's super portable, just take your laptop/iPad to your friends house, the park, wherever.
But it was not fear of imperfection or a lack of support. The world has gotten much better in that regard from when I was a kid.

The piano in the living room was never touched.

We are in an age where fear of ridicule and the craving for instant gratification
are producing kids/adults who won't practice piano or other instruments 'out loud', because somebody might hear the imperfections. Add in the numbers of apartment dwellers for whom practice 'out loud' on most any instruments presents it's own issues.

My wife was gifted a piano and quality lessons at age eight, but the sicko older siblings were jealous, and tormented at every opportunity, which sadly had a lasting effect.

Times and tech and societies have changed, and a lot of music is made by those safely tucked away in their space, with their earbuds/headphones and screens, rarely or never hearing a critical or encouraging voice, both of which have a place, when offered with good intent. Hearing one's performance applauded after having investing immense numbers of practice hours, is a thrill that too many people will miss out on in life.

Little wonder the 'music industry' is becoming a feedback loop in an elite closed inner circle. But for those feeling on the outside, it is still a golden age for musicians, where practice, learning, and wise $pending, make it possible to create like never before. With just seven white notes and five black notes to figure out, and practice being quite inexpensive, it isn't as hard to make music as most people believe.

(sorry for rambling )

[zerocrossing]

I just made a post in another forum to a guy that seem to had found peace of mind in using RePro and Obsession, the following: "I envy you for finding RePro and Obsession good enough for your needs. I definately not, which cost me a lot of time, money and frustration. But that´s partly why these forums exist, I guess..."

Get a Roland SE-02. Cheap and sounds as good as many classic Moogs. Monophonic but just record the voicings in separate passes or use arpeggios and delays to fake polyphony. It's easier than you might be imagining.

I've owned most of the legendary analogs but my best sounding tracks were done with a Studio Electronics ATC-1, which is nearly the same sound as the SE-02.

Someone recommended an ATC-1 to me and I found one at a good price. Loved it so much I upgraded to the X. It’s really an amazing sounding box.