why do all VST's nowadays feel corny??

[El°HYM]

Only Dickheads are using cell phones, this is a scientifically proven fact.

I love playing around with my iPhone.

[martinjuenke]

Only smart foxes are using cell phones, this is a scientifically proven fact.

I love playing around with my iPhone.

[ghettosynth]

there have been lots of these one man bands due to the advancement in live looping tech and daws...what differentiates them to make some of you see some as good performers and others as boring?...i still dont think the type of interface matters more than the intimacy afforded to the musician

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWT7Mik8WOg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fJMG1dZIiU

then at a much much higher level
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl9GtO_vQxw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8CH0Z3L54

As someone who’s been doing loop based shows since the early 90s, I’ve come to realize that there are two different types of musicians. Those who enjoy the performance aspects of making music, and those who don’t. I started out somewhat neutral on this point, but over the years I’ve found that I have landed firmly in the “don’t” category. I think people who love it become great performers and people who don’t, don't. It’s as simple as that. I don’t think the tools have anything to do with it.

I might break your model here. I love playing/performing with other people; I love playing guitar/singing on stage. I even like playing techno and/or ambient/experimental with other people that know what they're doing. I'm not a fan of most one person electronic performance shows, however, and I think that the real limitation is, wait for it, one person. I've felt this way for a long time and thought that the best live electronic acts in the 90s, when I saw a lot of them and performed myself, were, at minimum, duos. To be clear, I performed solo back then and it was a constant source of irritation. Don't get me wrong, it was well received, but I didn't enjoy performing like I enjoy performing in bands. I went through a "how do I play like I DJ phase" even changing my equipment and then eventually realized that DJing sounded better and was more fun. I see no reason not to just DJ my own music if I were to play out in most instances. That is at least fun for me.

I have enjoyed experimental one-person performances where the expectations of production match the manageability of live production of a single person. This can also apply to acoustic performers. I can enjoy a great solo act with acoustic guitar or piano. The production expectations are minimal, some compression on the vocal, perhaps some reverb or delay.

I could potentially enjoy giving solo electronic performances of this flavor, however, I hate packing and carrying gear and don't really ever want to do it again. DJing my music means taking a couple of USB sticks.

[zerocrossing]

there have been lots of these one man bands due to the advancement in live looping tech and daws...what differentiates them to make some of you see some as good performers and others as boring?...i still dont think the type of interface matters more than the intimacy afforded to the musician

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWT7Mik8WOg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fJMG1dZIiU

then at a much much higher level
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl9GtO_vQxw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8CH0Z3L54

As someone who’s been doing loop based shows since the early 90s, I’ve come to realize that there are two different types of musicians. Those who enjoy the performance aspects of making music, and those who don’t. I started out somewhat neutral on this point, but over the years I’ve found that I have landed firmly in the “don’t” category. I think people who love it become great performers and people who don’t, don't. It’s as simple as that. I don’t think the tools have anything to do with it.

I might break your model here. I love playing/performing with other people; I love playing guitar/singing on stage. I even like playing techno and/or ambient/experimental with other people that know what they're doing. I'm not a fan of most one person electronic performance shows, however, and I think that the real limitation is, wait for it, one person. I've felt this way for a long time and thought that the best live electronic acts in the 90s, when I saw a lot of them and performed myself, were, at minimum, duos. To be clear, I performed solo back then and it was a constant source of irritation. Don't get me wrong, it was well received, but I didn't enjoy performing like I enjoy performing in bands. I went through a "how do I play like I DJ phase" even changing my equipment and then eventually realized that DJing sounded better and was more fun. I see no reason not to just DJ my own music if I were to play out in most instances. That is at least fun for me.

I have enjoyed experimental one-person performances where the expectations of production match the manageability of live production of a single person. This can also apply to acoustic performers. I can enjoy a great solo act with acoustic guitar or piano. The production expectations are minimal, some compression on the vocal, perhaps some reverb or delay.

I could potentially enjoy giving solo electronic performances of this flavor, however, I hate packing and carrying gear and don't really ever want to do it again. DJing my music means taking a couple of USB sticks.

Yeah, that makes sense. I think when I wrote my post I was also thinking of the packing and carrying gear part as a part of performing. If I had a crew to break down, transport, set up, break down, transport and setup for me, I may have enjoyed performing a lot more. I'm definitely not saying that I didn't have many amazing times on stage over the years, because I did. A huge part of my dislike for performing is all the stuff that has nothing to do with performing. It's why I like to be an employee vs. a contractor. I want to make stuff, not worry about the business aspects of things.

I guess what I'm really saying is that some amazing and well established band should have discovered me and hired me to be in their band. JK, I'd hate the travel part of touring too.

[BONES]

Yeah, I know I'd hate full-on touring but I enjoy most of what a live show involves. It's always been an intellectual challenge (for the intellectually challenged?) to pare down my rig to the smallest it can be. I always used to measure it by how many trips back to the car I needed to bring everything in. I never got below two trips until we started working with a laptop but now I can catch the bus to a gig if I need to and it wouldn't even look like that's what I was doing.

As someone who’s been doing loop based shows since the early 90s, I’ve come to realize that there are two different types of musicians. Those who enjoy the performance aspects of making music, and those who don’t.

How does "loop based" come into it? It's not the only option for playing live and never has been. Even when my sequencers were just 2 x TB303s, I was still able to sequence proper songs, with intros, verses, choruses, middle-8s and all the rest of it. TR606 and TB303 both had song and pattern modes.

I love playing/performing with other people; I love playing guitar/singing on stage. I even like playing techno and/or ambient/experimental with other people that know what they're doing.

OTOH, I don't care if there is anyone else on stage with me or not. Why? Because it's about the f**king songs! Don't get me wrong, playing live is why I do music but other people don't make it any better or worse.

To be clear, I performed solo back then and it was a constant source of irritation.

Why? I did for more than a decade and it was fine. I even got to the stage where I was doing my own lights, via footswitches. I didn't mind at all because if anything f**ked up, I only has myself to blame.

eventually realized that DJing sounded better and was more fun. I see no reason not to just DJ my own music if I were to play out in most instances. That is at least fun for me.

I've done a lot of both and they are such different things, they have almost nothing in common, beyond a PA. For me, DJing is about one-tenth as much fun as a proper live show.

I have enjoyed experimental one-person performances where the expectations of production match the manageability of live production of a single person.

I've spent 40 years making sure that the difference always falls in favour of the live show. Think about it - you write a song and how many times have you performed it before it comes out on an album? By the time the album hits you've probably played it many more times and it's gotten better and better. That's always been the case for me. I get better, the gear gets better, the arrangements and the mix get better. It's inevitable.

I hate packing and carrying gear.

So don't. My whole set-up fits in a carry-on sized bag.

[Jac459]

This discussion has become both totally off topic and ... more interesting than the original subject...

[ghostwhistler]

What happened to VSTS being hard to understand and really confusing but sounding good?

Nowadays its all about the graphics on the UI its so cheesy.

im 23 but this makes me feel old.

Because people don't do anything musically interesting with them. Its all 'making beats' and writing simple commerical music.

Now that's fine, it doesn't harm me if that's what you want to do. But it doesn't scream 'pushing the boundaries'

Flame on!

[osiris]

Corny, you say?

[zerocrossing]

Yeah, I know I'd hate full-on touring but I enjoy most of what a live show involves. It's always been an intellectual challenge (for the intellectually challenged?) to pare down my rig to the smallest it can be. I always used to measure it by how many trips back to the car I needed to bring everything in. I never got below two trips until we started working with a laptop but now I can catch the bus to a gig if I need to and it wouldn't even look like that's what I was doing.

Yeah, harder to do that as a guitarist, but I did once get things down to a single duffle bag, as long as the gig had monitors and a good FOH system. My main guitar being a Steinberger helped.

As someone who’s been doing loop based shows since the early 90s, I’ve come to realize that there are two different types of musicians. Those who enjoy the performance aspects of making music, and those who don’t.

How does "loop based" come into it? It's not the only option for playing live and never has been. Even when my sequencers were just 2 x TB303s, I was still able to sequence proper songs, with intros, verses, choruses, middle-8s and all the rest of it. TR606 and TB303 both had song and pattern modes.

There was a point where I was doing a lot of gigs where everyone else on the bill was DJs, so I tried that. I absolutely hated it. Bored to tears. It didn’t feel like making music to me, even when I was adding live parts on top of it. I always had sequences for some parts, but I was making those sequences on the fly, and they were a small part of what I did.

I’m not doing the type of music that you do, though. When I did, I was lugging a pedal board, guitar, amp and sometimes a keyboard and there was a full band. It was enough to fill my small car. Another aspect of it that I hated was that when my set was done, I basically had to go home. Most places don’t seem to have a place for you to keep your gear locked up, and after watching a guy start picking up my guitar out of a back room (he was just “moving it” ) I realized that the only secure move was just to pack up and go home.

[VitaminD]

Meh! I don't like things like this,

But I think the tools today promote 4/8 bar loop ruts more than ever (and it's been an issue for decades).

FACTS...this has gotten really bad in urban...a lot of guys are making one loop and that's it...no intro, no outro, no break, no bridge, no key change...a single couple bar loop for 2 min...noah 40 is famous and kids think he is a "musical genius"; and half the time his "break" is simply a filter sweep, leaving the filter closed for 2 bars, and then opening it again back to the same loop...even the industry standard 4 min song is dying...lots of charting songs are 2 min...not even fully fleshed out musical ideas...some poppy/urban stuff is basically the equivalent of commercial jingles

Maybe that is where "AI" is going to fit in next?

Someone makes a chorus or even just hums a melody. Then the software generates intro, outro, verses, bridge, and all the other sections from it to form a song. The user selects if they like it or a button press and it generates something different until they're satisfied with the outcome, then render, and on to soundcloud/youtube/bandcamp.

I think music is going to become significantly cheapened in the next decade. With some genres hit worse than others.

Live bands and singer/songwriter types should still be safe-ish. Again people like that human connection. Especially if their are lyrics and they have emotional weight to them. But the "AI" tools will still probably be used in production phase..

The real victim in this is music learning and knowledge. Similar to driving habits. People have so many automated systems in their cars that it seems few really know how to operate the car without them today. Automatic transmission, cruise control, automatic lane departure warnings, automatic emergency braking, parking assist, etc.

We're one or two steps away from the machine handling the whole process and effectively automating the human out of it. When that happens, how many in a generation or two from now will possess the underlying skills?

When you're no longer the creator of 'your' art, are you just a promoter of the machine? On tour to advertise the software's ideas. Pop is kind of like this today, and has been for a long time, with label songwriters and the acts that perform their songs on stage.

[bermudagold]

Meh! I don't like things like this,

But I think the tools today promote 4/8 bar loop ruts more than ever (and it's been an issue for decades).

FACTS...this has gotten really bad in urban...a lot of guys are making one loop and that's it...no intro, no outro, no break, no bridge, no key change...a single couple bar loop for 2 min...noah 40 is famous and kids think he is a "musical genius"; and half the time his "break" is simply a filter sweep, leaving the filter closed for 2 bars, and then opening it again back to the same loop...even the industry standard 4 min song is dying...lots of charting songs are 2 min...not even fully fleshed out musical ideas...some poppy/urban stuff is basically the equivalent of commercial jingles

Maybe that is where "AI" is going to fit in next?

I think music is going to become significantly cheapened in the next decade. With some genres hit worse than others.

We're one or two steps away from the machine handling the whole process and effectively automating the human out of it. When that happens, how many in a generation or two from now will possess the underlying skills?

When you're no longer the creator of 'your' art, are you just a promoter of the machine? On tour to advertise the software's ideas. Pop is kind of like this today, and has been for a long time, with label songwriters and the acts that perform their songs on stage.

well this is what i was pondering in the related thread
viewtopic.php?p=8657383#p8657383

dummying down music has its consequences...which made me think of this billboard article
https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip- ... 235303454/

"the reality is whether loop packs, construction kits, midi packs; or generative tools like auto chord plugins, midi melody plugins, sequenced effect/MSEG plugins that create pitch and cadence phrasing;...the more of the end product doesn't come from your conscious intent, the more it is the tools as opposed to the user...the danger is it collapses musical artistry to being more formulaic, derivative, and rule based...which opens up the door even more for AI to get a foothold"

that's why I don't think the loop stations and piano interfaces are the problem as others have suggested...I think any interface that allows the user to be as intimately connected to the instantiation and manipulation of sound in as many ways as possible; will lead to more varied and interesting end results...I think compositional crutches and construction foreman like triggering of pre-canned performances/sequences will be much more of a roadblock

[BONES]

I’m not doing the type of music that you do, though. When I did, I was lugging a pedal board, guitar, amp and sometimes a keyboard and there was a full band. It was enough to fill my small car.

I used to have enough to fill my small van, especially when I used to bring my own lights. My synths were all huge and everything required a lot of cabling. At one stage I even had a couple of home-made mannequins on stage with me. Transporting them was a real challenge.

[mikeyd2017]

I've enjoyed cube so far

[VitaminD]

Meh! I don't like things like this,

But I think the tools today promote 4/8 bar loop ruts more than ever (and it's been an issue for decades).

FACTS...this has gotten really bad in urban...a lot of guys are making one loop and that's it...no intro, no outro, no break, no bridge, no key change...a single couple bar loop for 2 min...noah 40 is famous and kids think he is a "musical genius"; and half the time his "break" is simply a filter sweep, leaving the filter closed for 2 bars, and then opening it again back to the same loop...even the industry standard 4 min song is dying...lots of charting songs are 2 min...not even fully fleshed out musical ideas...some poppy/urban stuff is basically the equivalent of commercial jingles

Maybe that is where "AI" is going to fit in next?

I think music is going to become significantly cheapened in the next decade. With some genres hit worse than others.

We're one or two steps away from the machine handling the whole process and effectively automating the human out of it. When that happens, how many in a generation or two from now will possess the underlying skills?

When you're no longer the creator of 'your' art, are you just a promoter of the machine? On tour to advertise the software's ideas. Pop is kind of like this today, and has been for a long time, with label songwriters and the acts that perform their songs on stage.

construction foreman like triggering of pre-canned performances/sequences will be much more of a roadblock

Construction foreman like triggering of pre-called sequences? I don't understand what you mean.

I see how samples can and have guided people's music at times, even my own, when I was less experienced. The samples have their own progression and I just supported that. Sure, it was a new song, but it wasn't really my own ideas.

Later, I learned how to use the samples to support my own ideas. So the reverse.

What we're discussing here isn't that though.

It's future tools that will likely generate chord progressions and melodies to be packaged in a track that the 'artist' will simply pick the elements out of a menu/list. I'm sure this will be used to create a lot more formulaic music that has of a high quality sonically but is boring or uninspired. Especially when it comes to purely electronic, dance-oriented forms. Such as House, Trance, Techno, or Hiphop/Rap/Trap/Crap, etc.

These AI models aren't coming up with something like "Black Hole Sun" or "I Want To Hold Your Hand" on their own. Songs that are left field or change the course of music/the beginning of an era, since these AI tools can only generate something based of ideas fed to it. It can only make songs similar to it. BUT it could, in theory, feed ideas off itself to iterate ideas long enough until it generates a new genre...

So it could be useful for proper songwriters to enhance their workflow, but it will also be abused by novices to crank out more and more formulaic garbage. And I think, long term, will ruin much of the artistry and direct human-ness of the music.

There's already several threads in discussion of this though.. but I don't see AI being a big positive on the whole, long term.

[N 4 LIFE]

Meh! I don't like things like this,

But I think the tools today promote 4/8 bar loop ruts more than ever (and it's been an issue for decades).

FACTS...this has gotten really bad in urban...a lot of guys are making one loop and that's it...no intro, no outro, no break, no bridge, no key change...a single couple bar loop for 2 min...noah 40 is famous and kids think he is a "musical genius"; and half the time his "break" is simply a filter sweep, leaving the filter closed for 2 bars, and then opening it again back to the same loop...even the industry standard 4 min song is dying...lots of charting songs are 2 min...not even fully fleshed out musical ideas...some poppy/urban stuff is basically the equivalent of commercial jingles

Maybe that is where "AI" is going to fit in next?

Someone makes a chorus or even just hums a melody. Then the software generates intro, outro, verses, bridge, and all the other sections from it to form a song. The user selects if they like it or a button press and it generates something different until they're satisfied with the outcome, then render, and on to soundcloud/youtube/bandcamp.

I think music is going to become significantly cheapened in the next decade. With some genres hit worse than others.

Live bands and singer/songwriter types should still be safe-ish. Again people like that human connection. Especially if their are lyrics and they have emotional weight to them. But the "AI" tools will still probably be used in production phase..

The real victim in this is music learning and knowledge. Similar to driving habits. People have so many automated systems in their cars that it seems few really know how to operate the car without them today. Automatic transmission, cruise control, automatic lane departure warnings, automatic emergency braking, parking assist, etc.

We're one or two steps away from the machine handling the whole process and effectively automating the human out of it. When that happens, how many in a generation or two from now will possess the underlying skills?

When you're no longer the creator of 'your' art, are you just a promoter of the machine? On tour to advertise the software's ideas. Pop is kind of like this today, and has been for a long time, with label songwriters and the acts that perform their songs on stage.

Yes, this discussion has gone a different direction but to the above poster's point, I really get it. I remember when my uncle in 1990 told me that computers were going to ruin earthly life. I thought t he was joking.
Did anyone here watch the Rick Beato AI video he posted about a week ago? It touches on a lot of these "modern world" issues and TBH totally has thrown me off kilter for a few days.
If you haven't seen it, it is worth the watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eAQOhDNLt4&t=628s