Sy77/Sy99 vs. FM7??
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 886 posts since 11 May, 2004 from cologne,germany
how do they compare?
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- KVRAF
- 2058 posts since 23 Sep, 2004 from Canada
Totally different beasts altogether IMHO.
SY77/99 uses AFM / has more algo's / and allows for the use of PCM/samples as modulators etc within an FM algo.
You can also combine standard FM / AFM and Subtractive PCM in a single patch.
Very complex synths.
Whilst the SY77/99 could do anything FM7 could you could not say the same for the other way round.
You can pull things out of an SY series FM synth that FM7 just couldn't hope to do.
They're all great synths none the less.
FM7 has a great interface and the SY series are alot to get your head around program wise.
They do sound rather amazing even too this day though.
SY77/99 uses AFM / has more algo's / and allows for the use of PCM/samples as modulators etc within an FM algo.
You can also combine standard FM / AFM and Subtractive PCM in a single patch.
Very complex synths.
Whilst the SY77/99 could do anything FM7 could you could not say the same for the other way round.
You can pull things out of an SY series FM synth that FM7 just couldn't hope to do.
They're all great synths none the less.
FM7 has a great interface and the SY series are alot to get your head around program wise.
They do sound rather amazing even too this day though.
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- KVRAF
- 4822 posts since 14 Mar, 2002 from Somewhere else, on principle
I'm not sure about FaX, but I own both of these machines.
IMO, the style of FM implemented in FM7 is closer to SY77/99 AFM than it is the original DX7... minus the ability to use samples as an FM waveform source, which AFAIC always sounded like crap anyway.
It's actually the other way around. FM7 has freely configuarable algorithms hence far more of them are possible.FaX wrote:Totally different beasts altogether IMHO. SY77/99 uses AFM / has more algo's
IMO, the style of FM implemented in FM7 is closer to SY77/99 AFM than it is the original DX7... minus the ability to use samples as an FM waveform source, which AFAIC always sounded like crap anyway.
Nope, SY77/99 series can't do Multi-Breakpoint envelopes, like FM7 can, so the same could indeed be said the other way around. Other than the AWM waveforms in the SY77/99, FM7 actually has more raw FM waveforms too.FaX wrote:Whilst the SY77/99 could do anything FM7 could you could not say the same for the other way round.
Last edited by John Vulich on Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 7 Sep, 2004 from UK
I think they can be very comparable. FaX described the features very well . However, if you keep to the basic FM parameters in the SY77/99 and the FM7 then you will be able coax the same kind of FM sounds from both.
Like FM7, Sy77/99 even have multi-point envelopes which can be looped.They are not as extensive as FM7s but still very usable.
This feature actually was very rare in the early 90's, when SY77 came out, and the pleasure from getting several rythmic, looping FM sounds going at the same time was therefore great ! It's not a big deal nowdays, but then it was rather special, for me anyway.
The sound will differ once you start exploring RCM, Yamaha's fancy name for modulating samples with FM, as FaX has explained very nicely. There are also extra digital waveforms in the Oscillator page and new modualtion options in the Algorithm page which can further change the sound, but you are still within FM, just adding more harmonics, which FM7 should be able to do too, with carful programming. However, I plead ignorance here, as I haven't used FM7 yet.
Another differencve between the SYs. Unlike SY77, SY99 adds more to the options with user loadable samples.
And I have to agree with Fax, the SY7/99 can and do sound just amazing still.
I actually grew up with my SY77 and therfore don't find it difficult to program, if you ever get an SY, let me know and I'll share some very lovely sounds with you.
As a side note.
Years ago, people used to complain that FM sounds cold and thin. On KvR, you see comments like , "looking for a fat sounding synth like Sytrus"...how opinions change with good programming. My Sy77 used to make fat sounds when FM was most ridiculed for it's 'thin' and 'harsh' sound. LOL.
End of trivia.
Like FM7, Sy77/99 even have multi-point envelopes which can be looped.They are not as extensive as FM7s but still very usable.
This feature actually was very rare in the early 90's, when SY77 came out, and the pleasure from getting several rythmic, looping FM sounds going at the same time was therefore great ! It's not a big deal nowdays, but then it was rather special, for me anyway.
The sound will differ once you start exploring RCM, Yamaha's fancy name for modulating samples with FM, as FaX has explained very nicely. There are also extra digital waveforms in the Oscillator page and new modualtion options in the Algorithm page which can further change the sound, but you are still within FM, just adding more harmonics, which FM7 should be able to do too, with carful programming. However, I plead ignorance here, as I haven't used FM7 yet.
Another differencve between the SYs. Unlike SY77, SY99 adds more to the options with user loadable samples.
And I have to agree with Fax, the SY7/99 can and do sound just amazing still.
I actually grew up with my SY77 and therfore don't find it difficult to program, if you ever get an SY, let me know and I'll share some very lovely sounds with you.
As a side note.
Years ago, people used to complain that FM sounds cold and thin. On KvR, you see comments like , "looking for a fat sounding synth like Sytrus"...how opinions change with good programming. My Sy77 used to make fat sounds when FM was most ridiculed for it's 'thin' and 'harsh' sound. LOL.
End of trivia.
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 7 Sep, 2004 from UK
You can do two points on the envelope, and with a suitable algorithm a proper multi stage envelpe can be achieved. The loop point is selectabe as well, so it gives more options. It's not as flexible as FM7, but still very usable.John Vulich wrote: Nope, SY77/99 series can't do Multi-Breakpoint envelopes, like FM7 can
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- KVRAF
- 2058 posts since 23 Sep, 2004 from Canada
The filters in the SY series also makes a huge sonic difference IMHO and shouldn't be overlooked in influencing the overall character of the SY77 & 99.
There is definate overlap but I still stand my ground on the point that the SY's can churn out some sounds you'd be hard pressed to get from FM7.
And yes they can oddly do analog style emulation rather well (as can many FM7 patches).
The digital resonant filters in the SY series really are exceptionally good and shouldn't be dismissed as they add heaps of character.
Then as stated there is RCM ( a form of PCM data ) the ability to use samples in an FM algo and the ability to layer standard SY85 style S&S sounds with FM sounds as well.
Or say use the attack of an RCM sample for the "chiff" of a flute with the qualities of FM in the decay and release stages for example or too combine an ep sample with the fm equivalent for more realistic expression than standard RCM synthesis can afford.
One uses 0% CPU resources and the other uses some but is rather well optimised on that front also.
A huge amount of realism and expression can be tweaked from the 77/99 due to the fact that it can combine both styles of synthesis into a single patch if needs be.
Great evolving pad monster it is too.
Not too shabby at percussive syntesis and if you rol your sleeves up and get down and dirty the Sy's are capable of some superb filmic sound design also.
There is definate overlap but I still stand my ground on the point that the SY's can churn out some sounds you'd be hard pressed to get from FM7.
And yes they can oddly do analog style emulation rather well (as can many FM7 patches).
The digital resonant filters in the SY series really are exceptionally good and shouldn't be dismissed as they add heaps of character.
Then as stated there is RCM ( a form of PCM data ) the ability to use samples in an FM algo and the ability to layer standard SY85 style S&S sounds with FM sounds as well.
Or say use the attack of an RCM sample for the "chiff" of a flute with the qualities of FM in the decay and release stages for example or too combine an ep sample with the fm equivalent for more realistic expression than standard RCM synthesis can afford.
One uses 0% CPU resources and the other uses some but is rather well optimised on that front also.
A huge amount of realism and expression can be tweaked from the 77/99 due to the fact that it can combine both styles of synthesis into a single patch if needs be.
Great evolving pad monster it is too.
Not too shabby at percussive syntesis and if you rol your sleeves up and get down and dirty the Sy's are capable of some superb filmic sound design also.
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- KVRAF
- 2058 posts since 23 Sep, 2004 from Canada
i might add you can pull some nylon/acoustic style patches and other wind intrument sounds of an SY that can still put alot of physical modelling synths too shame.
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 7 Sep, 2004 from UK
Agree on all counts.FaX wrote: A huge amount of realism and expression can be tweaked from the 77/99 due to the fact that it can combine both styles of synthesis into a single patch if needs be.
Great evolving pad monster it is too.
Not too shabby at percussive syntesis and if you rol your sleeves up and get down and dirty the Sy's are capable of some superb filmic sound design also.
The pads, especially, can be mesmerising. However, there isn't anything in the presets that would point to that. This synth has to be fully learned to get the best out of it. The 'symphonic' effect helps when inspiration leaves.
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- KVRAF
- 2058 posts since 23 Sep, 2004 from Canada
We are comparing hardware to software here so it's a diffrent kettle of fish.G-Ro124 wrote:as a general rule of thumb, Native Instruments is always better than its competitors, except for Battery, in which case DR-008 rules
That said FM7 is IMHO better than the DX7.
I used to own a DX7IIFde with the GreyMatter board.
Was great with an Electrix filter bank whacked on the outputs none the less
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- KVRAF
- 2841 posts since 23 Feb, 2004 from Planet Earth...for now
Bring em on FS! I recently bought a TG77 (Rack mount version of the SY77)Forever Sun wrote:I actually grew up with my SY77 and therfore don't find it difficult to program, if you ever get an SY, let me know and I'll share some very lovely sounds with you.
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- KVRist
- 320 posts since 24 Apr, 2004 from Right behind you NYC
Yeah I also own the TG-77 which I bought 14 years ago lol , and also have the Dx7 and FM-7.
All are good but the FM7 wins, hands down. and I paid over $2500 US for the TG when it first came out, and man you need to really own it to compare working on a 7 by 2 inch screen compared to working on a 21 inch moniter. that alone makes life easier but when the sound quality is this close to the hardware why strain your eyes anymore.
So I love the TG and have cut my teeth on it , its SO much eaiser working on the FM7, and Ive got over 30.000 thousand SY-TG and DX7 patches for the FM-7.
No comparison.
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All are good but the FM7 wins, hands down. and I paid over $2500 US for the TG when it first came out, and man you need to really own it to compare working on a 7 by 2 inch screen compared to working on a 21 inch moniter. that alone makes life easier but when the sound quality is this close to the hardware why strain your eyes anymore.
So I love the TG and have cut my teeth on it , its SO much eaiser working on the FM7, and Ive got over 30.000 thousand SY-TG and DX7 patches for the FM-7.
No comparison.
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- KVRAF
- 6244 posts since 25 May, 2002 from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH
Stairsteps wrote:... and man you need to really own it to compare working on a 7 by 2 inch screen compared to working on a 21 inch moniter. that alone makes life easier
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| B U D W E I S E R | ||'|"\,__.
|_..._...______===|=||_|__|...,]
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Agreed, there is a really huge difference between TG77 and FM7 in term of programmation's easiness
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- Banned
- 71 posts since 16 Apr, 2005
Bought a SY99 new, friend with me bought a JD800, shoulda bought the JD800. Part Exed it some years later for ensonique MR76 (which I again part exed for an EX5)!
Could never understand how to program it at the time , dreadfull interface, good sounds, especially when you loaded in the 10 or so disks that were hard to comeby from Yamaha.
Now I have Sytrus or a soft synth FM, now I can understand it all better.
Terrible manual with 1000s of pages of tech babble.
DG.
Could never understand how to program it at the time , dreadfull interface, good sounds, especially when you loaded in the 10 or so disks that were hard to comeby from Yamaha.
Now I have Sytrus or a soft synth FM, now I can understand it all better.
Terrible manual with 1000s of pages of tech babble.
DG.
