KVR Audio

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:07 pm

The necessary files/content for the first official Rayblaster soundset/expansion are just about to be collected/sorted.
A set of additional waveforms will be included too, some of them created after the official release.

Most of the filter response/impulse waveforms of different synths are already published for free here and at the Rayblaster forum. More free waveforms should be available soon.
The majority of the waveforms (90+ %) i submitted for the soundset were created with DNR Wave Designer.

A few people including me started doing presets for another soundset based on Atmospheres/Pads.

Ingo

ariston · Post by **ariston** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:20 pm

Re: all Tone2 synths sound the same... it seems like an unfair bit of criticism, but I do feel the same way. I'm speaking for Gladiator, Saurus and now Rayblaster. There is something same-y about all of these, even though their synthesis methods are totally different. It's that overly bright, shiny, hyper-real glossy thing that they all have going. I realize this is totally subjective and can probably not be measured in any way, but there it is. Maybe it's that psychoacoustic whatever that they're constantly referring to. Maybe it's the effects, I don't know. I jes don like it, ma.

Anyway, I'm glad we have all these different synths and I'm sure Rayblaster will blast its way into a lot of hearts and hard disks.

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:27 pm

Ingonator wrote: Most of the filter response/impulse waveforms...

they are not filter impulse waveforms, they are single cycle osc waveforms. The synth apparently magically turns them into filter impulses once you load them.

if you want a saw sound, you load a saw. If you want a saw going thru a 24db LP filter, you load a saw going thru a 24db LP filter....or you could just use a synth that does that already and have full control.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:50 pm

Kriminal wrote:
Ingonator wrote: Most of the filter response/impulse waveforms...
they are not filter impulse waveforms, they are single cycle osc waveforms. The synth apparently magically turns them into filter impulses once you load them.

if you want a saw sound, you load a saw. If you want a saw going thru a 24db LP filter, you load a saw going thru a 24db LP filter

Technically you are correct but which other synth you know could do this from a simple single cycle waveform, especially the reproduction of Resonant behavior based on a Resonant waveform?
Anyway some things have to been taken care of when creating those waveforms as i explained in my long answer to your post. For example a basic rule is that the Cutoff of the original synth should be around 1000 Hz. A maximum Cutoff amount will limit the available frequency range in Rayblaster to a small are.
I usually also made one waveform with full Cutoff for harsh sounds.

And if you want a Triangle, Square or Pulse (with ability for PW/PWM control) load the corresponding "PW sequence" from the oscillator section.

As already mentioned if you use a custom waveform that was not based on any specific filter Rayblaster will still create a new filter response which is called a "fantasy filter" that could produce very different timbres while changing the Formant value. Those are the most interesting ones maybe.

Ingo

kimik · Post by **kimik** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

GUI feedback:

i keep on hitting those lfo waveform "buttons" all the time and nothing happens, cause they aren't buttons, but should be, stupid having to cycle them all. same with the 2x 4x unison "buttons". shouldn't be hard to implement..also I cant see thenames anywhere of the waveforms in use...

a bigger (maybe choosable) GUI with all matrix routings showing at once + a separate fx section with knobs for the parameters + a separate arp section..its stupid having to choose which parameters are showing. I need to seem them all if I want to.

noob question:

why does the formant work as a pitchshifter on some presets?

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:01 pm

kimik wrote:GUI feedback:

i keep on hitting those lfo waveform "buttons" all the time and nothing happens, cause they aren't buttons, but should be, stupid having to cycle them all. same with the 2x 4x unison "buttons". shouldn't be hard to implement..also I cant see thenames anywhere of the waveforms in use...

a bigger (maybe choosable) GUI with all matrix routings showing at once + a separate fx section with knobs for the parameters + a separate arp section..its stupid having to choose which parameters are showing. I need to seem them all if I want to.

noob question:

why does the formant work as a pitchshifter on some presets?

1.) the waveform clicking works in the Windows version but like with Saurus there is a problem doing the same with the Mac version. Markus is working on that but currently there is no solution for the Mac users.

2.) names of the waveforms:
Something already mentioned by me and other and will hopefully added in an update.

3.) pitch shift: this usually happens when a longer sample was imported with the Resynthesis feature. In that case the Formant knob controls the pitch.

Anyway the filter response is different for each waveform so maybe this is part of a "fantasy filter" created based on a certain waveform.
Could you please mention names of some presets you talk about so i could check those?
Using big samples with the Resynthesis result in something like Granular synthesis where with a very low harminic value you "zoom" into the sample and could scan through the sample with the start phase parameter.

Ingo

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:21 am

Okay, thanks to Ingo, I got the Rayblaster installer to work and have been demoing the synth...

First impression... I like it for pads and atmospheric effects...

Demo restrictions are okay.

Gui seems kinda rudimentary... a bit disappointing in that this synth invites lots of cool modulations for drones and pads, but you cannot set them up at all on the main page. Also, the mod matrix is small and split over 3 tabs. No midi learn is unfortunate... Would be helpful if you could at least right click on a control to send it to the matrix and have the matrix open to the correct tab

It could really use some visual feedback of active modulation like say with Massive. Looking at the gui there is no indication at all of what modulation is going on (besides basic env's).

Rather than the help and buy now options on the bottom screen, I would much rather have mono/poly options and boost or quality mode option from the setup page... Hell, get rid of the keyboard and give me more synth space to have the mod matrix and effects all on the front page. There is a lot of synth power down in the mod matrix with interesting sources and targets but it is finicky to get to.

Last thing about the GUI... particularly this synth needs an undo... it is really easy to dramatically change the sound with a tiny knob turn and then it is hard to get back to where it was. Multiply by a few adjustments and it is easy to lose something interesting altogether.

Global tune would be nice...

Sound wise, I did not find any clear sharp plucks/bells sounds. Everything has a kind of fizzy/fuzzy/noisy quality. I like that quality in this case but I do think this is not an all around synth. It definitely has its specific sound which is likely due to the synthesis method... the same way granular sounds like granular. I quite like some of the atmospheres and pads and with its unique set of controls and modulation of them gives some pleasingly complex results that seem musically useful.

I wonder how predictable it is. Would I be able to aim for something and get there, or is it better suited to trying lots of stuff and seeing what interesting comes out.

Okay, those are my first thoughts...

Spitfire31 · Post by **Spitfire31** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:09 am

ariston wrote:Re: all Tone2 synths sound the same... [snip] It's that overly bright, shiny, hyper-real glossy thing that they all have going.

EXACTLY! That's what I also tried to describe in a befuddled way, in an earlier post.

I really don't care much for that glossy, semi-cured varnish, so I guess I'll pass and be content with Gladiator, should I feel a need for 'that' sound. Horses for courses, different strokes, and so on and so forth…;-)

/Joachim

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:37 am

pdxindy wrote:Okay, thanks to Ingo, I got the Rayblaster installer to work and have been demoing the synth...

First impression... I like it for pads and atmospheric effects...

Demo restrictions are okay.

Gui seems kinda rudimentary... a bit disappointing in that this synth invites lots of cool modulations for drones and pads, but you cannot set them up at all on the main page. Also, the mod matrix is small and split over 3 tabs. No midi learn is unfortunate... Would be helpful if you could at least right click on a control to send it to the matrix and have the matrix open to the correct tab

It could really use some visual feedback of active modulation like say with Massive. Looking at the gui there is no indication at all of what modulation is going on (besides basic env's).

Rather than the help and buy now options on the bottom screen, I would much rather have mono/poly options and boost or quality mode option from the setup page... Hell, get rid of the keyboard and give me more synth space to have the mod matrix and effects all on the front page. There is a lot of synth power down in the mod matrix with interesting sources and targets but it is finicky to get to.

Last thing about the GUI... particularly this synth needs an undo... it is really easy to dramatically change the sound with a tiny knob turn and then it is hard to get back to where it was. Multiply by a few adjustments and it is easy to lose something interesting altogether.

Global tune would be nice...

Sound wise, I did not find any clear sharp plucks/bells sounds. Everything has a kind of fizzy/fuzzy/noisy quality. I like that quality in this case but I do think this is not an all around synth. It definitely has its specific sound which is likely due to the synthesis method... the same way granular sounds like granular. I quite like some of the atmospheres and pads and with its unique set of controls and modulation of them gives some pleasingly complex results that seem musically useful.

I wonder how predictable it is. Would I be able to aim for something and get there, or is it better suited to trying lots of stuff and seeing what interesting comes out.

Okay, those are my first thoughts...

Hi,

thanks for you short review and nice to see that the solution Markus provided for Mac users seems to work.

For others: See the page before or here:
http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=1344.0

I'll maybe take time to comment your review in more detail later.
A few things:
1.) I agree that the mod matrix is one of the key features for interesting sounds and maybe should have a different place where it's visible all the time.

2.) Undo could be nice, have not thought about it yet

3.) Global tune: something i thought about myself some days ago...

UPDATE:
In the mod matrix you could assign a "Const" mod source to destinations like:
- Osc oct
- Osc Pitch
- Osc Semi
- Osc fine

This will affect both oscillators and could be used to coarse or fine tune the synth.

4.) Bell sounds: Actually i am a fan of those and created a few (around

but only one ("Inharmonic Bells IW", used in my audio demo...) made it into the final selection. Hopefully more will part of the first soundset for which the selection of sounds/presets should be finished soon.
I also created some new waveforms that could result in nice Bell sounds...

At some point i'll decide (also with asking Bsstiaan before) if i post some presets for free.

In that respect also some of my "additive" waveforms based on different partials in Cameleon 5000 could be useful.
In the factory content there are 3 waveforms called "IW_Additive wavetable 01_1" etc. and two single cycle waves called "Additive_1+3+7+9+13+15" (numbers belong to the partials) and "Additive_Odd Harmonics 003".

Those 3 "wavetables" in average contain 12 smaller single cycle waves and some crossfading. With using the "harmonic" value you could zoom into the waveform/wavetable and with "start phase" you could "scan" through the whole waveform to get the single waveforms. When adding modulation to the start phase you get an emulation of wavetable scanning synthesis.

As each oscillator could mix 2 waveforms ("Wave 1/2 mix") and you got two oscillators you could mix up to 4 different additive waveforms for a basic form of additive synthesis.

Ingo

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:51 am

Some official information about upcoming soundsets (i alraedy mentioned a few details here):

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=1350.0

Ingo

rentboyrenton · Post by **rentboyrenton** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:55 pm

ariston wrote:Re: all Tone2 synths sound the same... it seems like an unfair bit of criticism, but I do feel the same way. I'm speaking for Gladiator, Saurus and now Rayblaster. There is something same-y about all of these, even though their synthesis methods are totally different. It's that overly bright, shiny, hyper-real glossy thing that they all have going. I realize this is totally subjective and can probably not be measured in any way, but there it is. Maybe it's that psychoacoustic whatever that they're constantly referring to. Maybe it's the effects, I don't know. I jes don like it, ma.

Anyway, I'm glad we have all these different synths and I'm sure Rayblaster will blast its way into a lot of hearts and hard disks.

agree, with tone2 it got to the point where i am not sure if the dev is just reskinning the same synth over and over again though, adding a feature or two here and there and laughing at the suckers who buy it again and again

i recognize the sound immediately and i've never actually heard them on any record i like or even don't - i really dislike the sound, too. They sound like the personality was beaten into them with a shovel

but like you said it's good that we have all these synths and no matter what, i wish tone2 good luck regardless of me liking or not liking the sound, it's just an opinion anyway...

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:03 pm

agit wrote:
ariston wrote:Re: all Tone2 synths sound the same... it seems like an unfair bit of criticism, but I do feel the same way. I'm speaking for Gladiator, Saurus and now Rayblaster. There is something same-y about all of these, even though their synthesis methods are totally different. It's that overly bright, shiny, hyper-real glossy thing that they all have going. I realize this is totally subjective and can probably not be measured in any way, but there it is. Maybe it's that psychoacoustic whatever that they're constantly referring to. Maybe it's the effects, I don't know. I jes don like it, ma.

Anyway, I'm glad we have all these different synths and I'm sure Rayblaster will blast its way into a lot of hearts and hard disks.

agree, with tone2 it got to the point where i am not sure if the dev is just reskinning the same synth over and over again though, adding a feature or two here and there and laughing at the suckers who buy it again and again

i recognize the sound immediately and i've never actually heard them on any record i like or even don't - i really dislike the sound, too. They sound like the personality was beaten into them with a shovel

but like you said it's good that we have all these synths and no matter what, i wish tone2 good luck regardless of me liking or not liking the sound, it's just an opinion anyway...

I still don't get the point of all Tone2 synths sounding the same (i got all except Firebird) but maybe i am starting to get old...

Ingo

DHR53 · Post by **DHR53** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:29 pm

It was always my impression that I would pick out one of their synths and that would do it for me... Gladiator almost got me a couple times but now it seems each one is getting more expensive. It's kind of hard to justify $200. when Padshop pro is $79. Like, would I pay $200. ea. for 3 Tone2 synths when I can get the entire VST collection from Steinberg for $299. I'm not saying the steinberg synths are the greatest at anything in particular, but they fill in the space in a track which in the end is what you are doing in most tracks. Filler and a few "signature" sounds...

Maybe I'm getting pickier in my choices in the post GAS era.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:37 pm

DHR53 wrote:It was always my impression that I would pick out one of their synths and that would do it for me... Gladiator almost got me a couple times but now it seems each one is getting more expensive. It's kind of hard to justify $200. when Padshop pro is $79. Like, would I pay $200. ea. for 3 Tone2 synths when I can get the entire VST collection from Steinberg for $299. I'm not saying the steinberg synths are the greatest at anything in particular, but they fill in the space in a track which in the end is what you are doing in most tracks. Filler and a few "signature" sounds...

Maybe I'm getting pickier in my choices in the post GAS era.

There are also bundels for certain Tone2 synths + all expansions or the "complete bundle" with 5 synths, 4 FX plugins and all available expansions/soundsets for 999$ (799 Euros).

The statement that all Tone2 synths sound the same is as wrong as to say Zebra, Diva, ACE, TyrellN6 and Bazille do sound the same...

Saurus is the only Tone2 synth focused only on analog emulations and the HCM of Gladiator, IMS of Rayblaster and multiple synth techniques in ElectraX don't have very much in common...

Of course you could try to do the same sounds on all synths but that's not about the synths themselves, it's about who programs them.

Ingo

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:10 pm

Ingo, please...

Tone2 Rayblaster: OUT NOW! (demo version available)