Synths with snappy attacks (like ES2)

[Gonga]

Took around three minutes to get this kind of plucky attack on the Xils 4. Tbh this could be done in a number of synths, including digital ones like FM8, or Dune. If someone used an oscilloscope and compare the real things with their software counterparts, they might have a kind of surprise

Xils 4 Duke Lead

Yeah, that sounds a bit like Duke's mini, and the envelope sounds snappy, but it's not a particularly good example of a super-fast VCA attack. I'd like to hear the punchiest example you can do! Listen to the first example I posted above. That's a dynamic attack that sounds just like (except better than) my old Roland SH-1000. I'd like to hear other virtuals do that. I don't think I've ever gotten that kind of attack out of FM8, but it might be possible.

The oscilloscope idea is a really good one. It's been brought up here before but never done.

[Gonga]

I appreciate the snap as much as the next enveloped synth lover, but I think there is a difference between a fast click and a fast punch. I really don't know the science behind snappy envelopes, but Spire for example, has fast clicky envelopes, but it doesn't seem to translate as firmness. They're fast but not so punchy.
Personally, my search for the ultimate A-D phase of an envelope in the software realm has yet to be satisfied. As much as I love Zebra, I don't think it nails this kind of ultra tight punchiness either.

We could post some bass examples - I have some really punchy DIVA patches.

Different people are looking for different kinds of "snappy attacks" it appears, but here's a punchy bass by DIVA. It's dry with no effects at all. Some compression would make this a solid punchy bass for sure. I vary the filter decay from half gradually down to zero and back. The VCA decay is at zero the whole time, and the sustain is up just a tad (around 5-6 I think).

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/diva/D ... ss%202.mp3

[mcnoone]

I think Diva gets some great snap attacks with certain settings, but the Korg MS20 by Korg has the cable routing that makes a certain punch that works great for punchy basses. Something that can only be done in Diva if you assign a short decay no sustain envelope to the tune/pitch knob. I think the Korg MS20 has the snappiest envelopes, of any synth I've used.

[Lotuzia]

Took around three minutes to get this kind of plucky attack on the Xils 4. Tbh this could be done in a number of synths, including digital ones like FM8, or Dune. If someone used an oscilloscope and compare the real things with their software counterparts, they might have a kind of surprise

Xils 4 Duke Lead

Yeah, that sounds a bit like Duke's mini, and the envelope sounds snappy, but it's not a particularly good example of a super-fast VCA attack. I'd like to hear the punchiest example you can do! Listen to the first example I posted above. That's a dynamic attack that sounds just like (except better than) my old Roland SH-1000. I'd like to hear other virtuals do that. I don't think I've ever gotten that kind of attack out of FM8, but it might be possible.

The oscilloscope idea is a really good one. It's been brought up here before but never done.

What I did listen to was the examples you posted in your first thread, and the Georges Duke one, as a demonstration of your pseudo theory about VA and real analog stuff ( Btw I ALSO have an sh-1000, quite rare synth, though not especially featured )

The irony is that you, since that, edited your post and removed the G Duke example, and part of your text, to only leave the examples that you think fit your theory the best. Unfortunately, I quoted a large part of your post. Could you elaborate on why you edited so much your post ?

Tbh I dont like playing with friends that first propose a game, set the rules, and then change the rules suddenly, and edit their texts.Lets simply say I have a certain idea of what fair play means

As for the Duke's preset, it took me 3mn to craft one. I could make it more large and snappy with a variety of techniques, including the easiest one : using one additional trapez EG and the "ON" parameter.( not mentionning that Duke was probably also aware of things like compressors ) It is certainly possible to get some more accurate emulations of his patch, or dozens of variants of it. As you FIRST asked to audio clips trying to match the examples YOU gave, I thought it was a good idea to propose one.

[Gonga]

I'm sorry you took offense - none was intended. I thought your sample was gorgeous and did a good job. It also had a snappy attack. I complemented you numerous times above (as I have numerous times in the past).

I edited out my links because I realized they were superfluous to my point. The George Duke link was an example of the type of patch that uses only a tad of sustain and which was popular with fusion artists in the 70s, but it was not sonically the best example. My first DIVA post which remains above is a better example. I also realized that I don't wish to leave that Zebra sample up on my SC page because it pretty much sucks!

I do appreciate the time you spent to create a beautiful patch. We talk a lot about this topic but examples are always more useful (though not as good as downloadable demos!) Yours shows that the Xils modular sounds gorgeous and does have a snappy attack. I'm not playing a game, not setting rules. I would simply like to hear examples of dynamic attacks - literally. In other words, attacks which display a very loud and sudden burst of energy followed by a softer sustained (but musical) note. Yours does this, but I think my example sounds more dynamic (as you say though - my ears could be deceiving me). As I said before, with many synths in my experience, if you turn down the sustain of the VCA, you also turn down the energy of the attack (the attack can never be louder than the sustained portion of the note). That makes this particular sound, a musically historic and important one, difficult to achieve by many synths, in my experience.

mcnoone has posted information about how to achieve such a sound, as have you just now. I think really talented programmers such as you two could help a lot by really helping us laypersons with the technical side of how to create various extremely dynamic attacks. I would especially be interested in an analog sim that could do the type of attack I have described, more so than a digital synth sim.

So I hope you can see I have no "pseudo theory." I am simply making imprecise observations (all that a layperson can do with their ears). I am a scientist who has not only conducted, but directed, researchers at the post-graduate level. I know what a theory is. A theory must not merely be falsifiable, as with your proposed oscilloscope hypothesis which I suggested was a good idea, but must make valid predictions. I would place myself in the group of those who are not knowledgeable enough about the factors that go into the sound outcome to come up with a falsifiable prediction. To my knowledge, nobody here on this board has ever done this, though it would indeed be a great thing for an expert to do. If one were to use an oscilloscope to compare samples submitted here to those created by software, I would think that would be instructive, and could at least constitute an hypothesis. We would still be a far cry from any sort of scientific theory though.

That's an important point about compression. People should realize that it's important not to add any effects at all to the synth's output when posting examples like this.

So, my apologies if I offended, thank you again for your post. Please consider listening to the Clear Plastic example again (and the bass example I posted later) and consider the type of sustain-only sound I am referring to. It is indeed a very specific type of thing - and not everyone's cup 'o tea. Not a game - no rules - and not obligatory. Your participation is appreciated but not required

[PAK]

Different people are looking for different kinds of "snappy attacks" it appears

It's probably caused partly by the ambiguity of the word in the English language. Snap has a bunch of different meanings which depend on context. In this context it can be narrowed down to two main ones.. A sharp noise or the perception of speed. Both can be linked, but are also distinct.

So, for me, the first type of snap is something which produces a spike in the very initial attack stage and sounds like a clicking type noise. It's good for things like percussive sounds and lots of digital synths can do this type of "snappy" attack. Unfortunately this "clicky" envelope behaviour also serves as a convenient mask for differences in the attack stage between digital emulations and real analogue. Once you remove the clicky part of the definition it brings us to the second type.

The second type is probably better subjectively described by the word "punchy", since it removes the clicking aspect of what people sometimes attempt to describe when they say "snappy". This second type could sometimes be a reference to things like audio rate modulation too. But, in a more general sense, is usually a reference to envelopes.

It's a difficult thing for digital synths to emulate because multiple settings on a synth may be influencing the perceived shape of the envelope, and that requires modeling. Think of it almost like a type of subtle built-in compression which changes with the synths settings.

For me it's one of the "holy grails" of emulation since, other than listening for complexity in interactions, it's a basic element to the sound which can sometimes be picked up on. Native Instruments Monark sets the current standard to beat for tackling those sorts of differences, IMO.

[Lotuzia]

I'm sorry you took offense - none was intended. I thought your sample was gorgeous and did a good job. It also had a snappy attack. I complemented you numerous times above (as I have numerous times in the past).

I edited out my links because I realized they were superfluous to my point. The George Duke link was an example of the type of patch that uses only a tad of sustain and which was popular with fusion artists in the 70s, but it was not sonically the best example. My first DIVA post which remains above is a better example. I also realized that I don't wish to leave that Zebra sample up on my SC page because it pretty much sucks!

I do appreciate the time you spent to create a beautiful patch. We talk a lot about this topic but examples are always more useful (though not as good as downloadable demos!) Yours shows that the Xils modular sounds gorgeous and does have a snappy attack. I'm not playing a game, not setting rules. I would simply like to hear examples of dynamic attacks - literally. In other words, attacks which display a very loud and sudden burst of energy followed by a softer sustained (but musical) note. Yours does this, but I think my example sounds more dynamic (as you say though - my ears could be deceiving me). As I said before, with many synths in my experience, if you turn down the sustain of the VCA, you also turn down the energy of the attack (the attack can never be louder than the sustained portion of the note). That makes this particular sound, a musically historic and important one, difficult to achieve by many synths, in my experience.

mcnoone has posted information about how to achieve such a sound, as have you just now. I think really talented programmers such as you two could help a lot by really helping us laypersons with the technical side of how to create various extremely dynamic attacks. I would especially be interested in an analog sim that could do the type of attack I have described, more so than a digital synth sim.

So I hope you can see I have no "pseudo theory." I am simply making imprecise observations (all that a layperson can do with their ears). I am a scientist who has not only conducted, but directed, researchers at the post-graduate level. I know what a theory is. A theory must not merely be falsifiable, as with your proposed oscilloscope hypothesis which I suggested was a good idea, but must make valid predictions. I would place myself in the group of those who are not knowledgeable enough about the factors that go into the sound outcome to come up with a falsifiable prediction. To my knowledge, nobody here on this board has ever done this, though it would indeed be a great thing for an expert to do. If one were to use an oscilloscope to compare samples submitted here to those created by software, I would think that would be instructive, and could at least constitute an hypothesis. We would still be a far cry from any sort of scientific theory though.

That's an important point about compression. People should realize that it's important not to add any effects at all to the synth's output when posting examples like this.

So, my apologies if I offended, thank you again for your post. Please consider listening to the Clear Plastic example again (and the bass example I posted later) and consider the type of sustain-only sound I am referring to. It is indeed a very specific type of thing - and not everyone's cup 'o tea. Not a game - no rules - and not obligatory. Your participation is appreciated but not required

Its Ok. You just cant ask people to amke a *contest*/*game* and make sound examples similar to soundclips you post, then edit your post, remove the reference soundclips etc etc. As a scientist, I think you can understand that.How can someone who read the thread after that would be able to understand anything about the discussion. I never edit my posts to this point. If I make errors, then I make errors.Everybody makes some at some point, and its never a problem ( unless ones specializes in this, of course

There has been a lot of debates about the lack of snappyness of softsynths. I made a lot of comparisons side to side with different synths and softsynths. And have also access to some tests based on oscilloscopes. Ime these debates completely lacks substanciations. If differences are to be found, and indeed there still are, its not in this domain. Ymmv.

And yes in a lot of old tracks, compressors can be found. Less than nowadays where people tend to overcompress everything and win the loudness war ( With no evidence that music should always benefit of that)

[fluffy_little_something]

A good test is using such a patch in combination with an arp playing 32nd's

[PAK]

There has been a lot of debates about the lack of snappyness of softsynths. I made a lot of comparisons side to side with different synths and softsynths. And have also access to some tests based on oscilloscopes. Ime these debates completely lacks substanciations.

Substantiation is complicated by a variety of factors.

Snappy is a worse subjective term than most, because it conveys different meanings (and a perception of speed or energy in the attack doesn't necessarily mean an envelope has to produce a pronounced click.) So terms like that are just one reason things get complicated.

An oscilloscope is a useful tool to try to remove subjectiveness. But what looks near-identical on an oscilloscope can sound audibly different as far as your ears are concerned, especially when the sound is used musically.

I'm reminded of videos where companies like to wheel out guys in white lab coats, all looking seriously at their oscilloscopes, as if to imply scientific method and precise measurements. Except it doesn't reflect the reality of digital models. It's still filled with subjective judgements and simplifications made using nothing more than the humble ear.

And yes in a lot of old tracks, compressors can be found. Less than nowadays where people tend to overcompress everything and win the loudness war ( With no evidence that music should always benefit of that)

Some people argue digital contributed to this. Where a compressor might be used to tame an analogue synth, on digital synths more often they were used for the opposite purpose.. to "beef up" the sound and give it some punch and dynamics which might be thought to be lacking, and to use EQ to add more bass or high end they thought missing etc.

I think that's also part of the reason behind some peoples claims analogue synths need less post processing, with regards to EQ and especially compression. But I think that particular one could be argued either way

[fluffy_little_something]

I think when the decay is too short, one also gets the wrong impression. Saw is seems less prompt than pulse, and open filter is worse than a pretty close filter for that purpose. At least that is my impression...
Detune, unison, and such features can also mess up the attack.

[Gonga]

If differences are to be found, and indeed there still are, its not in this domain. Ymmv.

I don't understand what you mean "not in this domain." I do have great respect for your expertise and opinion.

I agree with a statement you have made many times that synths are all different and should be viewed as different sounds for different purposes. I myself have a definite bias though toward clean / sweet / smooth (as opposed to crushed / rough / aliased) and powerful (as opposed to wimpy dynamics). So I fully appreciate the newer and finer quality synths such as Xils and U-He. If I hear you right, you are saying powerful dynamics are commonplace, and I hope you are right as the synth landscape is changing rapidly for the better, though I can tell you after demoing and purchasing many synths over a period of years that this has not been my experience generally. Perhaps you get to spend a lot more time with a lot higher-quality synths than I Also, I'm not a great programmer (I'm a retired geologist) so I don't have much experience with really big, complicated synths. The most complicated synth I ever owned was an Oberheim FVS-1. For example though, over a period of many years I purchased every Arturia analog emulation, beginning with the miniV about 8-9 years ago. With those synths, as I turned down the VCA sustain, the attack diminished proportionally - not authentic at all imo. The same was true for all my Cakewalk synths that came with Pro Audio and later SONAR, etc. And there were many others. I can say with assurance that none of the Arturia synths can produce an attack dynamic anything like that of the ClearPlastic patch I linked to here (DIVA). The landscape is definitely changed since then though and I am now curious as to which synths are particularly good with analog attack transient dynamics.

For me personally, the speed of the envelope is not the most important thing - for me it's the volume dynamics of the VCA attack transient. Anybody who is a fan of either Jan Hammer or George Duke are already familiar with the sound that has taken me years to get "in the box." And all I can say is, it's great to hear actual examples...I hope people post more so we can hear what they're trying to say!

[Cuauhtli]

Every time I see this topic I think of Al Jaffee.

[PAK]

I hope people post more so we can hear what they're trying to say!

Edit- I'd rather have posted something more appropriate, but don't have the opportunity to make something atm. Did post a polysix thing (which is not a good example, so no real point.. ), but forgot about this done when I first used Monark..
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375 ... ark_00.mp3

It'd be easier to demonstrate by sharing the bass sound preset though, since I'm not able to generate an mp3 showing just that atm. Only effect above is reverb, but Monark really does best when you tame it slightly. A lot of software has softer sounding envelopes (often associated with software) whereas Monark is more punchy/aggressive (sometimes too much).

[Gonga]

Every time I see this topic I think of Al Jaffee.

This and how many other topics?

That sounds great PAK, and I know from experience you are among those who are far above me in terms of programming skill. That sounds snappy yes, but imo lacks much of click or punch.

I'd still like to hear patches using the technique I described previously for the minimoog and Roland SH-1000. Unfortunately, my taste in punch (70's analog fusion) is a bit too strong for most. With DIVA, you do exactly what you used to do on a minimoog: you turn the VCA ADS knobs all the way down, then nudge the S knob up just a tad to the dynamic level you want. Then adjust the filter ADS to your sound preference. That's very specific, and here's exactly what it sounds like, (yes, it's a powerful click):

https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/clearplastic

It's an old recording and not the best example...I'll try to create a slower, dryer one later.

[Gonga]

I ALSO have an sh-1000, quite rare synth, though not especially featured )

The synth in my photo is an SH-1000 I modded myself in 1980. Still have it