When is Urs going to finally release that Diva MIDI controller? Kickstarter?

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
Post Reply New Topic
RELATED
PRODUCTS

Post

PAK wrote: Even with their flaws, host automation based controllers are the way to go for anyone controlling computer plugins!
Host automation based controllers ultimately have a higher ceiling of potential than MIDI. There's a narrow category of DAW-specific hardware - thinking of Maschine, Push, Reason stuff - that shows this. However, for something that is not tied to a DAW and in fact implicitly supported 3rd party developers, VST2.x is pretty much the primary/generic consideration.

VST2.x has pretty limited host automation and really doesn't consider hardware control at all. In the context of where things were at 15 years ago when it appeared, that's understandable, and it's obviously been a successful standard nonetheless. Meanwhile though, the assumptions have changed. Plug-ins, DAWs, and hardware controllers have grown considerably in variety, scale, and complexity, past what VST2.x was probably intended to handle. (Tellingly, there's a class of bugs and work-arounds related just to the number and order of VST parameters - I suspect DIVA's per-voice detune controls might trace back to this).

One might dream ... if the default plug-in specification was more conscious of hardware controllers, and did that well, everyone might benefit. Users might expect what's really kludgy in Automap - building control mappings, getting the pages and the ranges/resolutions right - to be really quick, perhaps automatic or creatively intelligent in some cases. Any hardware manufacturer could support it pretty directly, in any DAW. DAW and plug-in developers could offer the feature of really smart hardware integration for a very reasonable investment of planning/coding effort. (Some host automation issues that aren't directly related to hardware control would also be resolved, I think.)

Sadly, 2013 suggests completely positive advances in plug-in standards might be a ways off. VST3 has crippling conceptual flaws making host/plug parameter stuff a bit of a clusterfuck, Apple's new security model is a clusterfuck for AUs. AAX? iLokalyptical clusterfuck. I'm worried there's at least another half-dozen or a dozen clusterfucks in the way of a plug-in standard that's a decisive improvement here. Despite the long-term potential, in the meantime I think MIDI is worth thinking about; not saying it's completely cluster-chaste but it's possible and more of the pieces are in place that it might seem :hihi:

(I'm also reminded of a maxim - all technical approaches to a problem eventually converge; maybe part of what a better MIDI might look like is also part of what a better VST standard would look like)

[e] I really think adopting a little bit of logical typing and metadata for parameters in VST-like formats would go a long way here. There's a danger of trying to do too much, or missing the mark conceptually, making the back-end engineering infeasible. But maybe it's analogous to how the first versions of HTML really didn't add too much to a plain-text version of the same content, but still were completely revolutionary. It's still difficult to see any time soon, IMHO.

Post

xh3rv wrote:(Tellingly, there's a class of bugs and work-arounds related just to the number and order of VST parameters - I suspect DIVA's per-voice detune controls might trace back to this).
Who knows. But I can think of VST2's which are over a decade old and have more than triple the amount of parameters exposed. So I don't consider it a good reason for why these sorts of things are allowed to persist for the last two and a half years.

I'd say it traces back to a low priority given to host automation, and a preference to work on Uhe's own MIDI solution. Uhe's not even doing basic testing with stuff like Automap, and I know that because I sat on an obvious bug for months (simply launching the Automapped VST3 was enough to confirm - the GUI wouldn't appear!) So several things contribute towards that opinion.

I still care about good automation as a topic, so please don't mistake that with the fact that I gave up on this stuff long ago. By "gave up" I mean I no longer bother to report more serious bugs in Diva either (there's still pretty nasty stuff in there since the patch recall / corruption issues a while back etc.) Hopefully one day they might get around to fixing things, and having a better attitude towards host automation in general. But I wouldn't count on it.. Plus Diva's original main dev is now gone, which likely won't help.
if the default plug-in specification was more conscious of hardware controllers, and did that well, everyone might benefit.
That's very true. Things like control mappings would significantly benefit from being just that little bit more intelligent. Although devs could still do a lot more with the order controls are reported in now. For example, though not universal, rows of 8 controls are a very common hardware default. But just some semblance of order would be an improvement on most stuff! :)
Sadly, 2013 suggests completely positive advances in plug-in standards might be a ways off.
Yes, unfortunately I think you're right. Steinberg have Yamaha's resources behind them and, if they got a few sign-ups like Apple behind something, maybe they could ignore the rest of the industry and still make it go somewhere. The MIDI Manufacturers Association have been working on a so-called updated MIDI "HD Protocol" for years, which uses ethernet for delivery. But it doesn't look like there's anything better coming along any time soon.

I get the impression some of these guys are deliberately dragging their feet because they want to delay better hardware / software integration experiences out of concerns for disrupting and impacting their own hardware interests. I think that's all the more reason to argue for stronger host automation support in the meantime..
Despite the long-term potential, in the meantime I think MIDI is worth thinking about; not saying it's completely cluster-chaste but it's possible and more of the pieces are in place that it might seem
Yes. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. Think of all those "dumb as a rock" basic MIDI CC controllers out there too. If companies can offer those users something more, through more intelligent mapping in their software, then it's a positive.

But, as you said yourself, host automation offers a "higher ceiling of potential", and that shouldn't be lost either. Support MIDI by all means. But, as I said, please don't ignore the host automation side or do things which harm that experience. Is it too much to ask? Sometimes it seems like it.. :)

Post

PAK wrote:I'd say it traces back to a low priority given to host automation, and a preference to work on Uhe's own MIDI solution. Uhe's not even doing basic testing with stuff like Automap, and I know that because I sat on an obvious bug for months (simply launching the Automapped VST3 was enough to confirm - the GUI wouldn't appear!) So several things contribute towards that opinion.
VST3 was a nightmare. Once we gave up fixing *that* (it isn't fixable), we have fixed hundreds of issues. Just check the latest builds threads in our company forum.

Last year was tough. Global malfunctions with VST3, remnants of RE adoption and introduction of AAX including our own episodes of iLokalypse. That's the main reason why a lot of other issues and niggles were left unresolved. We have since changed our priorities. We are now working on all issues that are not related to new plug-in standards, before we go back and revisit those. Once done we'll rewrite VST3 and we'll update REs. For the time being, as far as we can tell, our VST2s work just fine in Automap.

I get where you get your opinion from, but I can assure you that we're doing our best to fix things.

Post

Urs wrote:
PAK wrote:I'd say it traces back to a low priority given to host automation, and a preference to work on Uhe's own MIDI solution. Uhe's not even doing basic testing with stuff like Automap, and I know that because I sat on an obvious bug for months (simply launching the Automapped VST3 was enough to confirm - the GUI wouldn't appear!) So several things contribute towards that opinion.
VST3 was a nightmare. Once we gave up fixing *that* (it isn't fixable), we have fixed hundreds of issues. Just check the latest builds threads in our company forum.

Last year was tough. Global malfunctions with VST3, remnants of RE adoption and introduction of AAX including our own episodes of iLokalypse. That's the main reason why a lot of other issues and niggles were left unresolved. We have since changed our priorities. We are now working on all issues that are not related to new plug-in standards, before we go back and revisit those. Once done we'll rewrite VST3 and we'll update REs. For the time being, as far as we can tell, our VST2s work just fine in Automap.

I get where you get your opinion from, but I can assure you that we're doing our best to fix things.
They are working pretty good here with automap. The tune thing is a bit weird but I can mostly work around it. Would love to see the digital osc selector exposed in Diva but that's not a bug, just something that would make the whole thing mouseless, which would be nice.

Post

Would be nice if u-he released a midi controller with just a load of motorised knobs on it that could be mapped to any setting on a u-he synth along with some pedals.

I map u-he synths to my Novation midi controller but its not got enough knobs.

Post

I could imagine something like the interfaces of the Little Phatty or Pulse 2 being good for controlling DIVA. Every knob would need to be able to do multiple functions, anyway.

Post

Echoes in the Attic wrote:The tune thing is a bit weird but I can mostly work around it. Would love to see the digital osc selector exposed in Diva
I checked the notes I made (last year) and make it 38 controls with no host automation possible, all of which are assignable to MIDI. The list..

OSC - DigitalType1, DigitalType2, ResetPhase1, ResetPhase2, ResetPhase3, and the "HQ" digital osc switch.
Global Settings - Transient Mode, V1Tune1 to V8Tune3 (24 Vtune controls), as well as Bipolar Noise.
Voice Circuit - Voice1 to Voice6 (The 6 "stack" controls).

Maybe I missed something, but I think that's all of them, though a control for selecting the main tabs (main / modifications / trimmers / scope / patches) would've been nice, just like you can toggle the filter/env GUI's.
Urs wrote:Once done we'll rewrite VST3 and we'll update REs. For the time being, as far as we can tell, our VST2s work just fine in Automap.
Nobody cares about VST3. Nobody. Well, ok, I guess they might have one guy locked inside a cupboard at Steinberg HQ who might. I hear the big bosses call him Sokusa-chan.

Suffice to say the point wasn't about VST3. But I do wish you well in future with that stuff :)

And yes, Automap works, apart from the stuff which was being discussed (like the list above).

Post

Kaboom75 wrote:I map u-he synths to my Novation midi controller but its not got enough knobs.
The best solution atm is to use a hybrid of host automation and MIDI. Check out the Behringer BCR 2000 controllers. They're $150 new, and probably the best value controllers around. Plus they're 14-bit (higher resolution MIDI) capable. Using that alongside a Remote SL will probably give you the best experience for now..
I'll need to check out the Nektar controllers later this year. Curious how they'll work alongside Automap too :)

Post

Thanks the Behringer BCR 2000 is what I was thinking of.

Post

My new touchscreen second monitor makes Diva even more fun to use:

Image

It's obviously not that much better than mousing, but I find it more rewarding using a touchscreen than a mouse so all good.

Post

Image

From http://sound-force.nl/controllers/

nice idea but limited, also without feedback is not so much better.
dedication to flying

Post

barryfell wrote:My new touchscreen second monitor makes Diva even more fun to use
Would you be willing to try out the Griffin Powermate with it? I'm hoping that will make it like editing the Studio Electronics ATC-1: touch and twist, touch and twist, ad infinitum. If you're in the US, I could send one to you to try out.

Post

Uncle E wrote:
barryfell wrote:My new touchscreen second monitor makes Diva even more fun to use
Would you be willing to try out the Griffin Powermate with it? I'm hoping that will make it like editing the Studio Electronics ATC-1: touch and twist, touch and twist, ad infinitum. If you're in the US, I could send one to you to try out.
Funny you should say that, as I was thinking about picking one up for that very reason, as not all controls are suited for full touch control, especially if they are small, so 'touch and twist' with a hardware knob would be a good solution.

However, I'm in the UK, so will pick one up over here. Thanks anyway though. :)

I'm also interested in these Tuna Knobs that are coming out:
Image

Post

Note PowerMate USB is not compatible with Windows 7 according to their web site.

Post

Frantz wrote:Note PowerMate USB is not compatible with Windows 7 according to their web site.
Right enough. Oh well, there goes that idea!

Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”