KVR Audio

Cinebient · Post by **Cinebient** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:44 pm

Chrisboy2000 wrote:
Will there be an iOS version as well for the player at least. Also piracy there might be not such a problem.
Yes. Although it may be a bit tricky to adapt to the AppStore conditions but I can imagine making contracts with 3rd party developers to offer their libraries as In-App purchases.

Nice, Auria does a similar thing on iOS with providing IAP plug-ins from Fabfilter, PSP and a few others. So it should be possible.

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:54 pm

Guys, I think the bottom line is that HISE will be good for small and large developers and be more feature rich than Kontakt (in terms of what is possible do with samples, phaselocking support, granular synthesis, sample-accurate timers, etc.) The details just need to be worked out.

Chrisboy2000 · Post by **Chrisboy2000** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:00 pm

Thanks Elan. We really need to start talking about the phase locking support

SampleScience · Post by **SampleScience** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:09 pm

Thank you for your answer. I'll check out the latest build and spend a bit of time to see if it will fit my needs.

Chrisboy2000 · Post by **Chrisboy2000** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:23 pm

Yes. Please feel free to ask any question (either here or in the HISE forum) if you are missing anything crucial...

bungle · Post by **bungle** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:44 am

Sorry, but the pricing is ridiculous, and this utter nonsense that it has more features than Kontakt, please, what an absolute pile of smell, it has way less features than Kontakt.
Also comparing HISE to a 10k Kontakt licence, did you actually just do that ?
Kontakt is a trusted product used in nearly every studio across the planet, HISE is an unfinished product with a limited set of features compared to Kontakt, there is zero comparison.
Enjoy charging 500-700 for a single app, you may get a few sales, but it wont be much more than that.
It may seem fair to you, and may well be fair, but getting people to pay that, different ball game, good luck though, you will need it.

Paree · Post by **Paree** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:01 am

bungle wrote:Sorry, but the pricing is ridiculous, and this utter nonsense that it has more features than Kontakt, please, what an absolute pile of smell, it has way less features than Kontakt.
Also comparing HISE to a 10k Kontakt licence, did you actually just do that ?
Kontakt is a trusted product used in nearly every studio across the planet, HISE is an unfinished product with a limited set of features compared to Kontakt, there is zero comparison.
Enjoy charging 500-700 for a single app, you may get a few sales, but it wont be much more than that.
It may seem fair to you, and may well be fair, but getting people to pay that, different ball game, good luck though, you will need it.

Agree. As i already said, there is maize sampler for making sample based VST instruments and it costs just 99 dollars (One Time Fees). The fact that you are making a paid player version makes it even more boring for the devs. As i already said, you must give something to get something.

bungle · Post by **bungle** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:07 am

Cinebient wrote:
Chrisboy2000 wrote:
Will there be an iOS version as well for the player at least. Also piracy there might be not such a problem.
Yes. Although it may be a bit tricky to adapt to the AppStore conditions but I can imagine making contracts with 3rd party developers to offer their libraries as In-App purchases.
Nice, Auria does a similar thing on iOS with providing IAP plug-ins from Fabfilter, PSP and a few others. So it should be possible.

Yeah and who maintains that ?
If you are suggesting it is all done via IAPs in a player, that means that developers of libraries have to submit their libraries to whoever is running the IAP service for said player (IN your example that is obviously wavemachine labs for their own app)
SO are you expecting the developer of HISE to be running this IAP service ?
Now if creating libraries is free, is the $20 for the player (A fee that most IOS users will not pay by the way, most of them moan at anything over $5) going to cover that continual work of updating the IAP system when another developer who has paid nothing expects their new library up as an IAP in the player.
And trust me, it will be a lot, a lot of crappy libraries put out simply because they can make a couple dollars here and there.
Add to this the fact that all the IAPs are the responsibility of the IAP provider, so now not only are they expected to update and maintain the IAPs, but they are expected to check the clearance of all the content too, right, because if they are selling copyrighted content as an IAP, we know where that ends up.

This whole thing is complete nonsense right now, i suspect the developer has not looked in to any of this yet, and when he does, the player for IOS will either never happen or it will be near impossible for library developers to charge via the app store.

bungle · Post by **bungle** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:19 am

Paree wrote:Agree. As i already said, there is maize sampler for making sample based VST instruments and it costs just 99 dollars (One Time Fees). The fact that you are making a paid player version makes it even more boring for the devs. As i already said, you must give something to get something.

It is just living outside reality, plugins don't have vast sales anyway, so any start up trying to get off the ground, cost of JUCE, cost of this for their first plugin it just isn't an option, and then they want to upgrade it to v2, so do they pay the per app licence fee again ?
Also i am interested to know what marker the plugin has that tells the developer that it is created with HISE ?
I mean he has to have some plan in place to check if a plugin is made with HISE so that he can check the developer has a licence (It can be freely compiled under the GPL, no ? )
Or is there some generic UI container or such, which makes it even less of an enticing route for developers.

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:50 am

The pricing scheme and software packages discussed here do not make sense for the wide audience of this thread. This thread shows that HISE is not ready for the spot light. The bottom line is Chris is getting ahead of himself. Chris should focus on ways of creating wide adoption OR work with specific well-established developers to begin recuperating HISE development costs while keeping HISE largely under the radar. The ladder makes more sense.

Chris shouldn't be trying to open the flood gates when there's no flood, that's what this thread looks like at the moment. Bide your time, strategize, and you can begin to steal Kontakt's market.

Chrisboy2000 · Post by **Chrisboy2000** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:22 am

As i already said, you must give something to get something.

I was under the impression that releasing open source software already means "give something" but this appears to be wrong. You can release free instruments without any charge.

Also i am interested to know what marker the plugin has that tells the developer that it is created with HISE ?
I mean he has to have some plan in place to check if a plugin is made with HISE so that he can check the developer has a licence (It can be freely compiled under the GPL, no ? )

Same as with JUCE. I can't control it, but you are simply breaking the law if you release a closed source software based on GPL software. If you want to take that risk it's up to you, but this is certainly nothing special about HISE.

Chris shouldn't be trying to open the flood gates when there's no flood, that's what this thread looks like at the moment.

Yes I agree. However I didn't try to open the flood gates. I just stumbled over this post (which I didn't start btw) and there were pressing questions about licensing so I tried to sketch out my current plans but these appeared to be off putting for some of you.

Paree · Post by **Paree** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:44 am

Chrisboy2000 wrote:
As i already said, you must give something to get something.
I was under the impression that releasing open source software already means "give something" but this appears to be wrong. You can release free instruments without any charge.

Ofcourse, it is. But that doesn't help the developers who want to develop commercial plugins. And if it doesn't help them, it doesn't help you too.
For example, If a developer makes a library for your player, Their user base is limited to people who are users of HISE Player. They can insist the users to buy the player but who would pay for the library and pay for the player too. Many of the "Player" Versions are free.
Eg: AAS Player is used to play AAS Sound Sets. While the sound sets are paywares, Player is free and comes with a free sound set too.
But, in HISE's Case, the sound libraries are 3rd Party Libraries. In that case, you can charge the developers some money for Commercial Products (Say 150 dollar per library) while free libraries can be played with the free player. Which is kind of reasonable and if they want to release a commercial VST, Charge something around 200-300 Dollars per plugin. Or you can have a one time payment option as well. But in my honest opinion,

1) Making a Commercial Player is literally killing the potential user base. You can make a player for free and a commercial player with more features. (Like Enzyme Player and Enzyme CM)

2) Per Plugin Fee is really high (If not ridiculous) .With SynthEdit trying to go 64bit and Mac compatible, HISE will not stand a chance. SynthEdit is pretty cheap as well (Below 100 Dollars).

Edit: Spelling Correction.

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:06 am

Paree, some good notes. At the end of the day, it's all about money. I don't know what kind of money Chris needs to earn so that HISE can be developed to be a good Kontakt competitor, all I know is that this thread is a mess, and it's because people are feeling like the licensing fees proposed by Chris is not going to help the small developer... and supporting small developers is important for wide adoption (I think?)... anyone replying to this thread is probably not a large developer.

If I was Chris (and again, I don't know how much money Chris needs), I would do whatever I can to make HISE a no brainer for small developers. I don't know how Chris can do that, I don't know what the right licensing scheme is... it's complicated because of how HISE is setup to be either a standalone plugin or just a player for sample libraries... that flexibility is great, but it confuses the whole situation when it comes to how everything works in terms of customers and small developers.

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:23 am

If it was possible to do, it would be nice (I think) if small developers could opt for a per-sale / percentage of profit based fee. That would equalize the problem of small vs large developer. Large developers could simply opt for the larger sum not based on their profits. I'm really not much help in this thread, sorry.

bungle · Post by **bungle** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:09 am

Cut of the profits, per plugin payments, it is all total nonsense, if the developer thinks any of that will work with a start up product, he is going to get a rude awakening and HISE will disappear like all this promising stuff tends to do.
One time payment for each major revision of HISE, exactly the same as JUCE is, smaller amount for a single seat, bigger amount for bigger companies, done and done.

Architheus said it right when he said it is all about money, and trust me, unless this has a stable ground level support/backing, it is going nowhere

HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt