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CharlyLN
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95 posts since 17 Jan, 2017

Postby CharlyLN; Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:43 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

I can´t say it enough. What we all love on the JP is the interaction between Supersaw, Filter and this strange ADSR.
The Supersaw Effect itself can done very well with current Synths like Dune2 or Charlatan whatever...

And here is the JP8000 Video of the day :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKNa5z8R9xg
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Ingonator
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11344 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:23 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

realmarco wrote:http://www.beepstreet.com/plugins/sunrizer

GUI certanly looks the part..the Sound No idea

although i do remember the jp8000 had a "feedback Oscillator" and thats missing from sunrizer


The only plugin that currently emulates all waveforms of the JP-8000 including teh Feedbackl Osc is the "Digital Osc" in U-HE Diva.

The "JP6K" 32-bit Windows plugin (no 64-bit yet) replicates the Supersaw nicely and the author Adam Szabo did write a Bachelor thesis about the Supersaw. Most others that tried to implement the Supersaw in a plugin seemed to use this as a reference.
A link for the thesis that also describes what is special about the Roland Supersaw:
https://www.nada.kth.se/utbildning/gruk ... _10131.pdf
Link for JP6K (commercial product): http://www.adamszabo.com/jp6k/

The free JP-4c Reaktor ensemble by Alex Shore produces a nice Supersaw too:
https://alex-shore.com/jp-4c/#.WWytTYjyiUk

The Roland JP-8000 Supersaw sounds quite special and is not easy to replicate with "typical" Unison or a Virus style Hypersaw.
This is based on the HPF used on the Supersaw waveform and also the detune curve for the 7 detuned Saws (oposing to e.g. a Hypersaw the detune amount between differnt Saws is not similar and/or "symmetric"). A special thing about Virus Hypersaw compared to a typical Unison or multiple detuned Oscillators is that it does not produce "phasing" even at very high detuning amounts.
Another thing is that opposing to a full Unison that mostly uses a full synth voice for an Unison voice (one voice card for each voice in real analog polysynths) a dedicated Supersaw or Hypersaw Osc usually does not reduce the polyphony.

Currently besides Diva i get really good results using a "raw" single cycle Supersaw sample (only one Saw) used with te "Supersaw" Unison mode in Tone2 Icarus. I got a wavetable that inclöudes that Saw from different synths including also Diva and a sample of the real thing. I also combind multiple of such waveforms to get my own waveform from those. Again this is a single Saw that only works together with the proper Unison mode in Icarus, not a full sample of the 7 detuned Supersaw waves. A simple "standard" Sawtooth wave simply will not give the same result. Also using an additional HPF in a dual filter (in series) will not really work properly.

Tone 2 Electra 2.1 (and later updates) does include dedicated HYpersaw and Supersaw Osc modes too.
With the Hypersaw before i sold my Virus TI dektop i could confirm that the sound is really nailed there.
Last edited by Ingonator on Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ingo Weidner - Sound Design
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9 / Studio One 3 / Bitwig 2
chk071
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13249 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:34 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

As we're on the topic of phasing: It's interesting that some soft synth seem to produce phasing, when you use unison, or per oscillator unison, and some don't. And some only produce phasing, when you use unison on two or more oscillators, but not, when you use one unison oscillator. Seems like there are differences in the code, and some synths completely avoid phasing, when set respectively, and some don't.
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Ingonator
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11344 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:43 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

chk071 wrote:As we're on the topic of phasing: It's interesting that some soft synth seem to produce phasing, when you use unison, or per oscillator unison, and some don't. And some only produce phasing, when you use unison on two or more oscillators, but not, when you use one unison oscillator. Seems like there are differences in the code, and some synths completely avoid phasing, when set respectively, and some don't.


In several synths like e.g. Waldorf Largo you could remove Unison phasing by setting the Osc waveform phase to "free".
At a fixed Osc phase you usally get the phasing.
Ingo Weidner - Sound Design
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9 / Studio One 3 / Bitwig 2
chk071
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13249 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:53 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

Yeah, but there is still phasing, also in Largo. In Spire, e.g., you get no phasing for oscillator unison, when you set the phase to free (on by default), with activated, or deactivated "analog" option for the oscillator, which enables free running oscillators, when it's turn on, and random phase start, when it's turned off (i guess the difference is that, when "analog" is turned off, you still could get phasing). When you mix in another oscillator, with unison turned on, you can still get phasing though, no matter what. In Sylenth1, i never noticed any phasing. Seems like some synth's architectures simply avoid phasing, maybe by a random phase start, which doesn't interfere with another oscillators phase start. So, sort of, a semi-random phase start, if that makes sense. ;) Dunno if that's true, or if there's more to it.

Edit: Another synth with oscillators, which even phase when you set the oscillators to free running, when using unison, is Z3TA. Like in Largo, there's never a situation, where phasing could not occur.
It's not "news" anymore, it's "infotainment".
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sinemotor
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32 posts since 24 Dec, 2015

Postby sinemotor; Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:17 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

If you want a really clean and HUGE supersaw sound, I would recommend you Serum. Its unison mode is my favorite for those type of sounds. It's also the synth every producers are using right now in EDM, especially Trap and Future Bass where supersaws are all over the place.
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Ingonator
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11344 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:35 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

chk071 wrote:Yeah, but there is still phasing, also in Largo. In Spire, e.g., you get no phasing for oscillator unison, when you set the phase to free (on by default), with activated, or deactivated "analog" option for the oscillator, which enables free running oscillators, when it's turn on, and random phase start, when it's turned off (i guess the difference is that, when "analog" is turned off, you still could get phasing). When you mix in another oscillator, with unison turned on, you can still get phasing though, no matter what. In Sylenth1, i never noticed any phasing. Seems like some synth's architectures simply avoid phasing, maybe by a random phase start, which doesn't interfere with another oscillators phase start. So, sort of, a semi-random phase start, if that makes sense. ;) Dunno if that's true, or if there's more to it.

Edit: Another synth with oscillators, which even phase when you set the oscillators to free running, when using unison, is Z3TA. Like in Largo, there's never a situation, where phasing could not occur.


There are two was of Unison: Global and Osc based. Global Unison works like in an analog hardware synth where each Unison voice represents a full voice card includig Oscs, filter etc.
This kind of Unison reduces the available notes/voies by teh amount if Unsion voices used. In many analog polysynths this leads to a monophonic synth like e.g. a Prophet 5 with a 5 voice Unison.

Oscillator Unison where i would also place the Roland Supersaw and Hypersaw (FWIW the Virus T has an additional "global" Unison too) works at the oscillator level and usually does not reduce the available polyphony as much as "global" Unison.
With an Unsion that is Osc based each Osc could have a different Unison or only certain Oscs got it.
This is found in e.g. Virus TI Hypersaw Osc, JP-8000 Supersaw in Diva (the real JP-8000 only has a Supersaw in Osc 1), Sylenth1, Icarus, Electra 2.1, DUNE 2.5 (Multisaw feature in the Oscs 1+2), Novation UltraNova (the 2 "Density" parameters in each of the 3 Oscs) and others.

Largo has a "global" Unison (per Layer) but you could set the amount of voices quite high and the overall CPU use of Largo is quite low so this does not produce a huge problem concerning CPU load. With multiple layers you could use a different Unison for each layer or add additional octaves and/or timbres.
Ingo Weidner - Sound Design
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9 / Studio One 3 / Bitwig 2
Caine123
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4378 posts since 5 Aug, 2009

Postby Caine123; Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:51 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

I thought sunrizer is a complete? emulation/inspiration of the jp8000 with all features?
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Ingonator
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11344 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:57 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

Caine123 wrote:I thought sunrizer is a complete? emulation/inspiration of the jp8000 with all features?


Sunrizer emulates the JP-8000 Supersaw but not the full synth engine.

As mentioned above only U-He Diva emulates the full Osc section including the "Feedback Osc". Diva also has 2 identical Oscs (including the Supersaw in both) where the original JP-8000 only has the Supersaw available in Osc 1.

On the other hand Diva only includes the oscillator module but not the filter, envelopes and other features of the JP-8000.
In Diva my favorite filter in combination with the JP-8000 Osc is the "Uhbie" filter.
Ingo Weidner - Sound Design
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9 / Studio One 3 / Bitwig 2
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Klinke1
KVRist
 
458 posts since 18 Feb, 2011

Postby Klinke1; Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:19 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

BeepStreet Sunrizer has an "introductary offer"..since several years.

Traffic jam on beepstreet..
- WonderEcho -
CharlyLN
KVRist
 
95 posts since 17 Jan, 2017

Postby CharlyLN; Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:46 am Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

I found this Video with a good focus on the filtersound of the JP. Curios, i remember a ,,similar´´ behavior with the CS1x.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCqZnBYL_6A

Could it be that we just need a filter which is programmed on low CPU ressources? I don´t know which filter could do such a job?
Dúnedain
KVRist
 
432 posts since 14 Dec, 2014

Postby Dúnedain; Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:46 pm Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

I'm pretty sure Falcon can do it. Plenty of filters to choose from and lots of ways to detune saws.

Is it a particular patch from the JP8000 one is looking for then IMO it comes within reach of many synths. By carefully picking a key follow parameter you can emulate a lot of filters.
Dúnedain
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Jax Pok
KVRian
 
533 posts since 1 Mar, 2015, from UK

Postby Jax Pok; Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:58 pm Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

So when is DIVA getting a circuit modelled digital filter?
chk071
KVRAF
 
13249 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:29 pm Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

CharlyLN wrote:I found this Video with a good focus on the filtersound of the JP. Curios, i remember a ,,similar´´ behavior with the CS1x.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCqZnBYL_6A

Could it be that we just need a filter which is programmed on low CPU ressources? I don´t know which filter could do such a job?

Seriously, sounds like an old school digital filter, like it used to be implemented in older VSTi's. Nothing really special about it, in terms of resonant behavior. I think the secret is merely in the character. A software developer, who would model a filter after that filter surely would be able to come close, or close enough. I don't think many developers, if any, would be motivated to do so. That's sort of the heck with VA's, noone cares, because they obviously all think they can do better. And sort of miss the point why these VA synths have been so popular, at least in many cases. I think that most soft synths lack the punch, and character of some hardware synths, like the Virus, Waldorf Q, or the JP-8000.

And with everyone drooling over analog synths (sure, nice filters for the most part), i guess it makes more sense for developers to model those. But, TBH, with all the nice plugins doing thick unison sounds, and having decent filters. my desire for a JP-8000 emulation is manageable too. I think it speaks for itself that many producers who used to use the JP-8000, or a Virus reach for VSTi's these days. A software Virus would be nice though.
It's not "news" anymore, it's "infotainment".
Dúnedain
KVRist
 
432 posts since 14 Dec, 2014

Postby Dúnedain; Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:25 pm Re: JP8000 supersaw...some questions

Let's not waste valuable developers time boys. :wink: Just grab your favorite VA synth, a spectrum analyzer and try to recreate the JP8000 filter.
Dúnedain
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