Any one using DAT machines?

[codec_spurt]

I know it's old tech. But I got a machine I have been looking for, for about 5 years now.

It's a Panasonic SV-3800 or something. I don't think it was a prosumer machine, I think it was a low end Pro machine. Not sure, and don't really care. It doesn't have the dreaded SCMS, so that is something, but probably doesn't mean a lot these days anyway.

It does, however, sound f**king superb. Maybe it is those 20-bit resolution DACs. I dunno.

Just thankful, the first couple of old DAT tapes I have chucked in it have played. I was going to clean the machine, when I came across this info:

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/cleani ... nes-often/

http://www.rockpark.com/d7/8_clean.txt

And finally, the best of all:
http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/DosNDonts.html

It cost me 20 quid on top for a spare remote. Not needed, but, you never know.

I also bought some new DAT tapes and a cleaner for the heads. Apparently, you should not clean the heads too much, especially on an old machine. Mine has been serviced so I thought I would give it a miss.

Anyway, does anyone still use these for production? What are the best models? Best tapes to use? Obviously they won't be available any more, but, you know, just curious.

I bought a couple of SP/DIF Cables to record the shit into my DAW.

I've noticed that most of the levels I have recorded stuff at was between -3 and -6 dB.

I think I must have thought it was like tape and been giving it a bit of overhead. I know I lost some bits. But I haven't been able to work out what. What would that equate to? A 16 Bit format down to -3 to -6 dB? Would that have been using just 14 bits or 12 bits or what? Any one know? Dynamic range?

I didn't know wtf to post this, so I put it here.

I see that I made most of my DATs at 48KHz too. Not a problem playing back on the machine, but I suppose it will be something to take into consideration when I digitally transfer to the DAW. The Panasonic just automatically adjusts, obviously, but this is something to be mindful of.

Anyone new to DAT, should read those few links I just posted. My machine cost me a oner (100 quid) and it works pretty good so far. Read those few links I posted. Full of common sense.

Does anyone have anything to add or suggest to me that I should be careful of?

I was worried that 20 year old tape would f**k the heads, but it sounds fresher than the day it was born. It is strange. It almost sounds better than the rest of the stuff I have recorded since. The dynamic range is MASSIVE. Low sounds with no noise, boosting up to ear splitting (but not distorted) levels, and back and forth.

I got a few new Sony DAT tapes to do some fresh stuff on. I like the idea of mixing live. I don't know how many re-writes they will suffer, but I will transfer them to DAW of course. And I don't know how long the heads on this beast will last out.

Just going to get my DATs transfered and copied, then come what may. Fun times.

Don't forget that some of the best records ever recorded were mastered on 14-Bit - see Robert Henke's lecture in New Zealand with his MonoDeck! By Trevor Horn for Grace Jones. 16 Bits is MORE than enough.

All that aside, anyone still got a DAT in their rig and use it?

[codec_spurt]

I'm about five dats in.

Not one has refused to play.

20 years on.

This is such a big moment for me.

I would like to thank, well, the people that invented f**king DAT machines for a start.

It's almost as if, my life has not been a waste. It is hard to describe. The music is strange, but strangely good.

The tapes been locked up in a mouldy hell for the most time. How they play at all.

Bostin'

[codec_spurt]

I'm about five dats in.

Not one has refused to play.

20 years on.

This is such a big moment for me.

I would like to thank, well, the people that invented f**king DAT machines for a start.

It's almost as if, my life has not been a waste. It is hard to describe. The music is strange, but strangely good.

The tapes been locked up in a mouldy hell for the most time. How they play at all.

Bostin'

I think I got lucky with this one.

[audientronic]

I have one of these. Bought it new 20 years ago and used it very little. Stupidly, in my younger days, I left a tape in there during the summer months and messed up the heads. Tried to clean them but given those warnings you linked to I may have scratched it, don't know. Anyway, I have a bunch of DATs to transfer so I may dig it out in the next couple weeks...

[codec_spurt]

I have one of these. Bought it new 20 years ago and used it very little. Stupidly, in my younger days, I left a tape in there during the summer months and messed up the heads. Tried to clean them but given those warnings you linked to I may have scratched it, don't know. Anyway, I have a bunch of DATs to transfer so I may dig it out in the next couple weeks...

It may be very playable. Just follow the rules.

It would seem that DAT is very very resiliant. My tapes were cooked in mega heat and humidity. Cold. Just f**king abused. Still, every one plays, 20 years on. This is a most wonderful format. I was worried they might coat my head in ferric oxide shit or whatever dude, but no, f**king solid.

[audientronic]

Just looking at what you paid. I think I paid $1700 back in the day.

[codec_spurt]

Just looking at what you paid. I think I paid $1700 back in the day.

That is what they went for back then.

It's pretty hard to find them in good condition.

But you wouldn't want to pay more than a couple of hundred bucks, these days.

[planetearth]

Anyway, does anyone still use these for production? What are the best models? Best tapes to use? Obviously they won't be available any more, but, you know, just curious.

I bought a couple of SP/DIF Cables to record the shit into my DAW.

I've noticed that most of the levels I have recorded stuff at was between -3 and -6 dB.

I think I must have thought it was like tape and been giving it a bit of overhead. I know I lost some bits. But I haven't been able to work out what. What would that equate to? A 16 Bit format down to -3 to -6 dB? Would that have been using just 14 bits or 12 bits or what? Any one know? Dynamic range?

I see that I made most of my DATs at 48KHz too. Not a problem playing back on the machine, but I suppose it will be something to take into consideration when I digitally transfer to the DAW. The Panasonic just automatically adjusts, obviously, but this is something to be mindful of.

Does anyone have anything to add or suggest to me that I should be careful of?

I was worried that 20 year old tape would f**k the heads, but it sounds fresher than the day it was born. It is strange. It almost sounds better than the rest of the stuff I have recorded since. The dynamic range is MASSIVE. Low sounds with no noise, boosting up to ear splitting (but not distorted) levels, and back and forth.

I got a few new Sony DAT tapes to do some fresh stuff on. I like the idea of mixing live. I don't know how many re-writes they will suffer, but I will transfer them to DAW of course. And I don't know how long the heads on this beast will last out.

Just going to get my DATs transfered and copied, then come what may. Fun times.

All that aside, anyone still got a DAT in their rig and use it?

I haven't seen too many people posting about DAT machines, but if you still have one in good shape, it's probably worth it to keep it that way. If nothing else, you can charge to transfer other peoples' DAT tapes to CD/DVD or whatever.

You get 6 dB of signal/dynamic range for each "bit" in a 16- or 20-bit recording. You can do the math from there, but even if you were getting 18 or 19 "bits", that doesn't necessarily mean it's a "pristine" recording. It probably sounds great, but a poorly recorded 18-bit recording will generally sound worse than a well-recorded 16-bit (or 14-bit) one. As I'm sure you know, if your gain staging throughout the signal path was not set properly, you could find yourself with quite a lot of noise and hiss--all perfectly rendered in 18-bit glory.

I wouldn't use 20-year-old DAT tapes on the machine if I could avoid it. Those tapes will shed and start dropping out as you play them. The shedding will create a problem inside the machine and on the head. The dropouts will be their own problems, of course. You might want to transfer them ASAP. I also wouldn't use a 20-year-old tape that was still in the wrapper. It may seem fresh or new, but it really isn't.

All that said, you could be recording at 24-bits with your computer (assuming that's what you use), and in theory you'd get better recordings than the 18, 19 or 20 bits you got from the DAT. If you don't think the recordings are as good (all other things being equal), you might want to check out your A/D converters. Your converters might not be as good as what was on the DAT, but again, in theory, a 24-bit recording can offer you much more headroom or better S/N numbers than a DAT machine.

Steve

[codec_spurt]

Anyway, does anyone still use these for production? What are the best models? Best tapes to use? Obviously they won't be available any more, but, you know, just curious.

I bought a couple of SP/DIF Cables to record the shit into my DAW.

I've noticed that most of the levels I have recorded stuff at was between -3 and -6 dB.

I think I must have thought it was like tape and been giving it a bit of overhead. I know I lost some bits. But I haven't been able to work out what. What would that equate to? A 16 Bit format down to -3 to -6 dB? Would that have been using just 14 bits or 12 bits or what? Any one know? Dynamic range?

I see that I made most of my DATs at 48KHz too. Not a problem playing back on the machine, but I suppose it will be something to take into consideration when I digitally transfer to the DAW. The Panasonic just automatically adjusts, obviously, but this is something to be mindful of.

Does anyone have anything to add or suggest to me that I should be careful of?

I was worried that 20 year old tape would f**k the heads, but it sounds fresher than the day it was born. It is strange. It almost sounds better than the rest of the stuff I have recorded since. The dynamic range is MASSIVE. Low sounds with no noise, boosting up to ear splitting (but not distorted) levels, and back and forth.

I got a few new Sony DAT tapes to do some fresh stuff on. I like the idea of mixing live. I don't know how many re-writes they will suffer, but I will transfer them to DAW of course. And I don't know how long the heads on this beast will last out.

Just going to get my DATs transfered and copied, then come what may. Fun times.

All that aside, anyone still got a DAT in their rig and use it?

I haven't seen too many people posting about DAT machines, but if you still have one in good shape, it's probably worth it to keep it that way. If nothing else, you can charge to transfer other peoples' DAT tapes to CD/DVD or whatever.

You get 6 dB of signal/dynamic range for each "bit" in a 16- or 20-bit recording. You can do the math from there, but even if you were getting 18 or 19 "bits", that doesn't necessarily mean it's a "pristine" recording. It probably sounds great, but a poorly recorded 18-bit recording will generally sound worse than a well-recorded 16-bit (or 14-bit) one. As I'm sure you know, if your gain staging throughout the signal path was not set properly, you could find yourself with quite a lot of noise and hiss--all perfectly rendered in 18-bit glory.

I wouldn't use 20-year-old DAT tapes on the machine if I could avoid it. Those tapes will shed and start dropping out as you play them. The shedding will create a problem inside the machine and on the head. The dropouts will be their own problems, of course. You might want to transfer them ASAP. I also wouldn't use a 20-year-old tape that was still in the wrapper. It may seem fresh or new, but it really isn't.

All that said, you could be recording at 24-bits with your computer (assuming that's what you use), and in theory you'd get better recordings than the 18, 19 or 20 bits you got from the DAT. If you don't think the recordings are as good (all other things being equal), you might want to check out your A/D converters. Your converters might not be as good as what was on the DAT, but again, in theory, a 24-bit recording can offer you much more headroom or better S/N numbers than a DAT machine.

Steve

Thanks for the advice.

I think the machine I have has 20 Bit Dacs, even if the stuff was recorded at 16 Bit at -6dB which renders it at.. you did explain.. I can figure it out if I want, but it sounds f**king great.

As for not using the machine too much, I totally agree, and that is the advice I am picking up from around the net. I was really expecting it to not play the tapes or have lots of errors and problems playing back. All the DATs were stored in one place, so however bad the humidity etc. was, it hasn't effected it too bad. I'm just doing one run through of each tape to check that it plays and if I get through to the end ( I have about 20 DATs ) without any problems, I will then transfer to the DAW.

I notice that everything was recorded at 48KHz as well. No biggie. The good thing about the Panasonic is that it has the SP/DIF, so I will use that.

There is also a code you can punch in to see how long the heads have been in use:
http://www.silentway.com/recording-tric ... -recorders

See also:
https://www.rapmag.com/index.php?option ... Itemid=136

and:
http://www.indiana.edu/~emusic/dat.htm

This machine is in very good condition considering it is 20 years old. Fingers crossed. I know it will only take one bad DAT tape to bugger it all up.

I am 'calendering' the tapes before I use them. This is the act of fast forwarding and then rewinding them before use, usually done to new tapes before use on Reel to Reels iiuc. Of course, as you have mentioned, this might just cause the tape to spew its coating all over the heads. But what to do? If I let it play and it is jammed and a big glob gets out, it might cause a bigger mechanical failure. I don't know what I am doing here. Trusting to fate. Not pushing my luck. Counting my blessings.

Thanks for your post. I will be more conservative now, if nothing else.

Anyone need any DATs transfered, I'll do it for you, once I got everything up and running and got my stuff done first, of course. Just PM me. Free to KVR members. And believe me, no one else in this world knows just how precious those tapes are. Recorded delivery to send and recorded delivery to return. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. And if you have 20 tapes like me, then, you know... I don't mind doing the odd one or two though.

Great advice!

I'm just working out whether to use Reaper or Studio One to transfer them. Also what recording levels to play them in at.

Cheers.

[Hink]

I know it's old tech. But I got a machine I have been looking for, for about 5 years now.

It's a Panasonic SV-3800 or something. I don't think it was a prosumer machine, I think it was a low end Pro machine.

I have a good friend I met working at MARs music around 2K who does sound for a lot of shows here, I think that is the model he was always looking for. Panasonic DAts were popular and we did sell them new but he wanted the generation before (forgive, I cannot remember exact model numbers). When I moved to a store where we bought and sold a lot of used gear one came in, the kid who took it in (he was maybe 18, that's why I say kid) really paid too little for it and he set a very low minimum price on it. Knowing the kid's days were numbered at the store (not his forte) and given the fact he was one of those who tried to steal customers from other salesman I called my buddy and he drove about 75miles round trip to get it.

You may have mentioned it, but how many hours are on the machine?

[codec_spurt]

I know it's old tech. But I got a machine I have been looking for, for about 5 years now.

It's a Panasonic SV-3800 or something. I don't think it was a prosumer machine, I think it was a low end Pro machine.

I have a good friend I met working at MARs music around 2K who does sound for a lot of shows here, I think that is the model he was always looking for. Panasonic DAts were popular and we did sell them new but he wanted the generation before (forgive, I cannot remember exact model numbers). When I moved to a store where we bought and sold a lot of used gear one came in, the kid who took it in (he was maybe 18, that's why I say kid) really paid too little for it and he set a very low minimum price on it. Knowing the kid's days were numbered at the store (not his forte) and given the fact he was one of those who tried to steal customers from other salesman I called my buddy and he drove about 75miles round trip to get it.

You may have mentioned it, but how many hours are on the machine?

As for the hours, I haven't punched in the code yet. Still figuring it all out. I will do it in the next day or two and report back.

As for the model, this is an excellent resource:
http://www.datrecorders.co.uk/sv3800.php

If you check the menu on the left, it shows the other main Panasonic machines- I know there was one before and after at least - the SV-3700 and the SV-3900 iirc.

Here ya go:
http://www.datrecorders.co.uk/sv3700.php

http://www.datrecorders.co.uk/sv3900.php

I know that some are harder to get hold of and some are supposed to be better than others, but I forget now. At least with the correct model numbers it is possible to do a good google search. That site makes its money by charging for manuals, so it is bona fide and what I based my decisions on when buying a dat. As I previously mentioned, with my DATs being old, I wanted a machine that was good with error correction - the Sony http://www.datrecorders.co.uk/pcmr300.php is supposed to be exceptional in this area with advanced error correction. So far, my little fellows are flying like the first day the learned how to do it! Touch wood.

I may decide to sell this machine once I have finished my transfers (not that much in the scheme of things) I would like a little profit, but I wouldn't gouge. I would be happy to sell to the states too. I nearly bought one from the states but psu shit made me not bother. Also, they say there is no tax, but man you can get gouged there too. My Akai cost me a couple of hundred bucks when they said it would just be 50 or so.

I probably won't sell though. I will transfer my tapes. Job done. Then I will keep it for special mixes. Every mix I do will be immediately transfered to DAW. When it blows up, I'll have a big smile on my face knowing, this was one of the few things I won in life. I have been looking for a DAT machine for about 10 years now off and on. Now is an excellent time to buy (sorry, I f**ked that up a bit, but you know), most machines are for parts, the ones that are working well cost a premium, but in the middle ground are little beauties like this - serviced, from reputable eBay sellers. They aren't going to start working better after this. I really expected the worse from this, and was braced, but for once, I am pleasantly surprised. Hence my offer to spread it round a bit brother.

[planetearth]

Those specs state 20-bit D/A (digital-to-analog) converters. I think you recorded these at 16-bits, however. They would be transferred digitally to your computer at 16-bits.

And are you sure you recorded them at 48 kHz? The deck can do 32 kHz and 44.1 kHz also.

If your audio interface supports it, you might be better off using the AES/EBU digital connections. S/PDIF was more of a "prosumer" format, and you might have a hiccup or two trying to get the devices to talk. (Of course, you might have no problems whatsoever.)

I'd use Studio One to transfer them; Reaper seems to be more for "composing" than straight recording of audio.

Tapes used to be stored "tails out" (meaning, at the end of the tape) rewound and even fast-forwarded to "prepare" the tape for playback. I'm not sure if this will help in your case. With old cassettes and reel-to-reel tapes I've had to transfer, it's put too much stress on the underlying tape, causing it to stretch or even break.

Steve

[JCJR]

DAT like most things digital, can be fragile long-term storage, especially high-use storage.

Not slamming digital, but for instance if you have a record, it will get scratchier and more distorted with use, but unless completely mangled it will keep on keeping on. Tape might start out "as clean as the medium will allow" and then gradually degrade to "not quite as good sounding" all the way down to "sounds like a victrola in a washing machine", before it gives up entirely.

But DAT tape will play perfectly as it wears, until all of a sudden it doesn't play very good at all, with pristine audio in spots, and NOTHING except the occasional click in other spots.

So anything you have on DAT, copy it off to your computer or something else, IMMEDIATELY while it still works, and recreationally listen to your copy. And if you don't want to lose it, save it to hard drive, usb stick, CDROM/DVDROM, whatever you hope will last awhile, and then occasionally check the media and possibly recopy to fresh storage media.

I've had DAT tapes develop problems after only a few plays, and others that lasted much longer.

Last weekend dug out my old Sony DAT and cleaned off decades of dirt. It worked perfect on the one DAT I tested from my box of old DAT tapes. I need to dig thru the tapes and make sure anything that needs saving gets dubbed off.

I also have a lot of old stuff on beta video tape, encoded from Sony PCM-501 (the first mass-market digital recording preceeding DAT). Need to clean off the 501 and the beta decks, to see if that still works. Worked fine a decade or two ago last time tested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_PCM-5 ... _processor

If it still works, will probably keep the 501/beta decks and the DAT for as mentioned in earlier message-- Maybe sometime there could be money to be made dubbing off folks old tapes after nobody else on the planet has a compatible deck.

One thing that is probably a lost cause-- I have a sea-trunk full of old 4 track and 2 track quarter inch tapes, and a few 24 track 2 inch tapes. If the tape hasn't degraded, would need to get access to a functional four track, a functional two track, and a functional studer 24 track to even test it. Kept meaning to at least buy an antique TASCAM 3340 four track, but never got around to it. I foolishly sold my four track and two track machines decades ago. They are kinda big and inconvenient to store if you rarely use them.

====

I got too busy to record only a few years after "all in the box" digital recording became practical, so maybe never got a good enough feel for mixing with a mouse, but danged if I think my old sequencer-locked-to-tape, mixed in real time analog to DAT or PCM-501, didn't turn out better sounding than my in-the-box disk mixes.

Considering getting into some recreational recording again, so maybe will try it both ways and see if there is something to "analog mixes better." Scientifically can't see any particular reason that would really be true. Most likely just the necessity of learning to mix in the box to get good results.

[codec_spurt]

I'd use Studio One to transfer them; Reaper seems to be more for "composing" than straight recording of audio.

As long as the tapes are transferred digitally at 48 kHz, you should be fine. But I have no idea if your system will support 20-bit digital transfers. It should, since it's digital, but I don't know which audio interface you're using.

Tapes used to be stored "tails out" (meaning, at the end of the tape) rewound and even fast-forwarded to "prepare" the tape for playback. I'm not sure if this will help in your case. With cassettes and reel-to-reel tapes I've had to transfer, it's put too much stress on the underlying tape, causing it to stretch or even break.

Steve

Thanks for the advice. I have a focusrite Saffire le with SP/DIF and I have an Alesis with an SP/DIF. I am assuming one SP/DIFF is pretty much like another, but then again, maybe the 'converters' on the Focusrite will be better. I bought some good cables (not Monster ) for transfer.

I am going to try Studio One first as it goes.

As for the whole 20 Bit thing. Like I said, I can see that when I recorded these, I thought I was just using some kind of analog tape thing. They are all about -6dB, and peaking at about -3dB. I read today, that you can actually go over with DAT, that some machines even sound better because of the converters, when pushed - not too far - over 0dB. Well I never.

I don't care about quality. I have a philosophy of always pandering to the highest possible availability, but I don't mind using cassette. Quality is not important to me. Music is. But like I said, I always try to get the best quality the equipment will provide. These tapes are sounding f**king wonderful -6dB or not.

But then I have to convert them to 44.1KHz from 48KHz. What program do I use for that?
Do I have it in my arsenal. RBrain Voxengo, Toneboosters, all over the shop with it at the moment - it's not something I do every day of course.

As for the tapes being stored 'Tails out'. Do you mean that you kept the tape (wound the tape) to the end of the real, and then wound it back in to play? Sorry, didn't quite catch that. I would be interested to know this as I just spent nearly a hundred bucks on some TDK SA-90's that I plan to use in my Akai MG-614. It would be good to know the best way to deal with them. I know that DATs and Cassette are different, but maybe not so different at the end of the day, if I am understanding you correctly.

[codec_spurt]

DAT like most things digital, can be fragile long-term storage, especially high-use storage.

Not slamming digital, but for instance if you have a record, it will get scratchier and more distorted with use, but unless completely mangled it will keep on keeping on. Tape might start out "as clean as the medium will allow" and then gradually degrade to "not quite as good sounding" all the way down to "sounds like a victrola in a washing machine", before it gives up entirely.

But DAT tape will play perfectly as it wears, until all of a sudden it doesn't play very good at all, with pristine audio in spots, and NOTHING except the occasional click in other spots.

So anything you have on DAT, copy it off to your computer or something else, IMMEDIATELY while it still works, and recreationally listen to your copy. And if you don't want to lose it, save it to hard drive, usb stick, CDROM/DVDROM, whatever you hope will last awhile, and then occasionally check the media and possibly recopy to fresh storage media.

I've had DAT tapes develop problems after only a few plays, and others that lasted much longer.

You've got a big 10/4 from me on that good buddy!



This is what I am hearing more and more. I got lucky so far. Not good to push it too far.

I will do though, as much as needed. Like I said I am just going through my tapes. In fact, I stopped going through my tapes after your post. The ones that are good so far are getting transfered, then I will do them one tape at a time, sweet jesus!



Er, I was going to photoshop it, but you get the picture. Time is short.

All I need now for one tape to blow up in the machine - all that money down the pan - no tapes transferred - and a lot of egg on my face.

I appreciate your advice. Thanks.