?:MADEq side chain pre delay

[steve2KVR]

...I've been duplicating the kick drum track as midi and moving it "forward" on the timeline to be able to use it as the side chain trigger in MADEq to "duck" the bass track on each hit, these are not fixed to the time-line hits, but rather more live, and changing from take to take...it would be great if the "side chain" input had some sort of pre-delay as a parameter...how are "you" guys managing this sort of thing....../s~

[jmg8]

Can you explain why you are offsetting the sidechain.
I don't quite understand. If you want the bass to duck when the kick sounds, surely just send the kick into the sidechain as it is. By moving it forward, the bass will duck before the kick sounds.

[MeldaProduction]

Me neither to be honest. I mean there are infinite number of things one can do to the triggering signal, but if we are going to waste quite some resources to add a delay to each band, there needs to be a very good reason for that .

[steve2KVR]

...sorry for the delay getting back here...stuff in life...without going all technical, the reason is to be able to trigger/start the compression/ducking of the bass track where it fits/sounds best in the given mix...a google on the subject will reveal endless discussions on the matter...I am not using a drum machine as source for the "kick" trigger, so nothing is "set and forget"...and that "kick" is being side-chained into MADEq...here are the settings for the MADEq, which comes from someone else's post (s/he sould be credited, just can't remember who/where, sorry)......so, after a great deal of experimentation I found that, for me, duplication of the "kick" track as a trigger, and moving it "ahead" on the time grid just a smidge to taste delivered a very pleasing result...hth....../s~

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[MeldaProduction]

I understand. I'll check it out, but really this is so specific, that I'm not really too open for it. After all the solution you found isn't too hard to do...

[steve2KVR]

...thanx for the consideration...another interesting "experiment" that seems to give "pleasing" results involving "pre-delay" at the side-chain input goes like this...I have two rhythm tracks, same guitar/mic/plugs/etc playing very similar/complimentary parts (not really a dbl track per se), and not necessarily the same chord shape/positions either...so to get them to "separate" without hard panning/Haas delay/etc...
1/ I duplicated each track, and set those duplicate track outputs to none, (only used as trigger/control tracks)
2/ then fed some signal from each muted track into the side-chain of the other live track,
3/ then selected one or two bands in each live track MADEq and enabled the "side chain" under "dynamics"
4/ ***tricky part here*** LPX allows a track/region to be advanced or delayed by "ticks," "ms," "note fractions"...soooooo...using this "feature" on the muted control tracks I can effectively control the input timing of the side-chain signals
5/ now "fiddle to taste"...very interesting...ymmv...

...all that fooling around would be eliminated if the "side-chain" input/s had a "time" parameter...btw, this is exactly the same procedure I am using for the kick/bass pairing in all of my projects...so for me it's not that uncommon....../s~

[vectorwarrior]

Could you possibly use mxxx for this? Could you use the report latency and delay modules to possibly do this?

[steve2KVR]

...probably, and there may be several other ways/etc...still the simplest solution is the "pre-delay" at the side-chain input, and this approach would be the cleanest...I've read in other forum posts about using this "feature" with other vender plugs, which is what sparked my curiosity in the first place...thanx for the suggestion, I'll keep fooling around.../s~

[jmg8]

It's is quite an unusual request as usually the side chain is used to duck the signal AT THE SAME TIME as the sidechain occurs. So one sound makes room for the other. I suppose it could be used creatively, but that is what MXXX is for.

[steve2KVR]

...yup...but "AT THE SAME TIME " is still relative to attack time/response time/rise ratio/wave analysis/etc and probably all sorts of internal response "syncing"...I was thinking/thought the same thing, but after reading through some insanely long threads I thought I would experiment and see what I got...mmmmmmmm...tried an experiment with just a kik side-chained into a compressor/eq on a bass track...the kik sample/source and the bass sample/source seemed to have as much to do with the result as comp/eq and side-chain delay settings...don't say I didn't warn ya....../s~

[jmg8]

I think the look ahead settings in the compressor would achieve the same result as predelay on the sidechain. Can't remember if MADEQ has look ahead?

[MeldaProduction]

No look-ahead, it's quite a complex thing to do. Basically any "time shift" either way could cause problems here.. long technical story . MXXX it is for now .
The delay would be actually much simpler to implement than look-ahead, but it's use still seems to me kinda specific... Perhaps could you share some simple examples steve? Like dry & processed & processed with delay?

[steve2KVR]

...I'll give it a try over the next few days and see what I can come up with. I'm also going to see what/how the implementation of what I'm doing will work in reaper and studio1.3...the whole of it would not be worth the effort/time if for some reason the situation is "peculiar/specific" to the lpx platform...Cheers!.../s~

[Terrafractyl]

Just thought I'd chime in here and say 'TIS A GOOD TRICK' and one I use all the time.

For clarification I make electronic dance music in which the Kick drum and bass line are 2 of the most important elements in the mix.

There is no other way to get such complete and utter clarity than to using this, ghosting, shifted forward kick to side chain the bass technique. (needs a better name)

When using this trick you can absolutely guaranty that the volume of the bass line has been completely brought down to -infdb (or whatever arbitrary db value you consider to be silent) when the kick drum hits.

I've spent lots of time doing experiments bouncing/rendering Kick drums and bass lines together and listening and looking at the resulting waveforms... One thing I learnt from this is if there is any energy in the bass line remaining when the Kick drum hits the start of the waveform of the Kick will be offset by the remaining energy in the bass line.

As compressors take time to do anything (they are not instantaneous) and I'm assuming the side chain also takes some milliseconds of latency, there is NO other way to ensure this doesnt happen in real time.

So yeah just saying this IS something that people do.
I usually just make a duplicate of my kick drum midi part, and then shift the track delay (cubase) to the appropriate minus value.
Then I send the 'fake' kick to no output bus so it can't be heard in the mix and send this kick to my sidechain. Which is super easy.
I'm not really sure of the best way to implement it within a plugin without adding latency to everything though.....

[steve2KVR]

...ahha! ..so i'm not crazy (or there are two of us )...we are using the exact same technique, and I've found that the wave forms of both the kick and bass, actually the envelope, have as much to do with the result as the actual offset timing...so far so good...

it was when I started experimenting with the two acoustic guitar tracks being sent to sidechain of the other that things began to become problematic. At least with the kik/base situation I had a midi pulse to work with...and so to make things easier/simpler for me, I came up with the idea/suggestion of having "look ahead/delay" added to the sidechain input...

...oh, and I am aware of the pdc/etc issues that are going to be involved....../s~

ps...thanx for chime, Terrafractly, I was feeling very lonely