Techno, trance, neither? First Music Cafe post for me. . .

[Uchdryd]

I ripped the vocal clips off of a workout video that was streaming on a Web site I visited to make this, hence the name (is this legal, by the way?):

http://media.putfile.com/Workout-45

Would this best be classified as techno, trance, or neither? It's some kind of dance tune, but it doesn't seem to fit squarely into either genre.

Also, are the kick drums overpowering? Any glaring errors in composition and/or mixing? Volume too loud or soft on any particular track? More importantly, could you see yourself dancing to this?

I already edited out a delay on the shakers that was driving me nuts the more I listened to it, and made the vocals a bit louder, but haven't uploaded that version yet.


Uchdryd

[polyslax]

Hey Uchdryd (sounds like a fine Welsh name!) - this is really out of my genre zone but it sounds pretty good, I think the vox could be a bit louder, and I hesitate to say that because I wasn't crazy about that grabbed work-out stuff.

Hope to hear more from you, thanks for sharing!

[Uchdryd]

Hey Uchdryd (sounds like a fine Welsh name!) - this is really out of my genre zone but it sounds pretty good, I think the vox could be a bit louder, and I hesitate to say that because I wasn't crazy about that grabbed work-out stuff.

Hope to hear more from you, thanks for sharing!

Thanks for listening! Yeah, that workout leader was definitely over-the-top with her enthusiasm, which is one of the reasons I thought samples of her cheerleading would be good for a dance song, but she can also grate on your nerves--much like other cheerleaders. I have to be in a certain mood to listen to that song.

I loudened the vocals and made a couple other changes, and I think the song is now as good as it will ever be and can be laid to rest: http://media.putfile.com/Workout-58-96

I'll upload a mellower song next.


Uchdryd (not my real name, but yes, it's Welsh!)

[mayan]

Uchdryd...what a riot! I did a piece outta porn samples that I found in Usenet...it was a profound experience. But yeah...this makes me want to take a Pilate's class. Well done.

[Uchdryd]

Uchdryd...what a riot! I did a piece outta porn samples that I found in Usenet...it was a profound experience. But yeah...this makes me want to take a Pilate's class. Well done.

Thanks m8. . .

I'm not sure I want to know the details of your "profound experience," but I would love to hear the end result. Post the song here if you still have it. I'll kick my kids out of the room and give it a listen.


Uchdryd

[mayan]

Uchdryd...you can find it on the Listen page at my web-site (see sig) in the Player, near the bottom...The piece is called "Realm of Desire." It was an early piece but daggum if it don't still jump! Enjoy!

[Uchdryd]

Uchdryd...you can find it on the Listen page at my web-site (see sig) in the Player, near the bottom...The piece is called "Realm of Desire." It was an early piece but daggum if it don't still jump! Enjoy!

Just checked out your Web site and. . . wow! Your music is highly entertaining, mayan! I can see myself buying a few of your songs. Highly unconventional stuff there. I read the treatise that goes along with the "Listen" page, and, while I'm not a Buddhist, I agree with your arguments as they relate to music.

If you're not familiar with them, you must check out Marconi Union. They produce music much the same way as you do, and it's simply gorgeous (albeit slow). As you might expect, they have a Myspace page.

As someone involved in law, can you give me a brief explanation as to what's legal and what's not when it comes to sampling vocals?


Uchdryd

[mayan]

uchdryd...wow...thanks so much! so glad you like the stuff...great to hear! Never heard of 'em but I will definately check 'em out. Now that I have my web site up and running, I think I will do the Myspace Page thang. Yikes!

As for the sampling...heh-heh...I'm definately not that type of lawyer. I work in the environmental field and before that it was underdog law all the way. I generally only use samples that I find from internet archives and what-not. Wish I could help ya out. Have you been following the discussion that shamann started in "Everything Else" about the "Great ROM debate>" (I don't remember whether I saw your name appear there or not.) There a long, vibrant discussion about sampling though (it breaks out periodically) and alot of very good discussion about the legalities.

[emdot_ambient]

Several things . . . First, I know the song's theme is a workout, but I think the vocal is relied upon too heavily at the expense of everything else--and you don't have enough different vocal samples. You've got a basic framework for the track but too few things going on and too few real change ups. This kind of song is tricky to do well because they don't rely upon melody, lyrics or even intricate rhythm. All too often what you end up with is a dull, repetitive song.

The trick is to play with tension and expectation. You've got to periodically and effectively add or subtract new parts so the listener has something to focus on. Right now I think you've only got about 1/4 of the number of sounds you need. The bass, drums and underlying parts you have need to be augmented by other interesting rhythmic &/or tonal parts. On top of that, you need at least one extended musical break where the drums get very soft, or drop out altogether. During this break you would add pads, FX, more vocal samples, whatever you need to put the listener in an unexpected sonic environment . . . then bring the drums back in slowly and dramatically (often what's used is a kick &/or snare 16th note pattern, starting very low and then peaking to a loud climax, accompanied by some dramatic SFX, filter sweep on a bass line or other dramatic sound event) then you hit the listener with the payoff--the orgasm--of bringing all the main or original themes back in in a huge splash.

IMHO, you should probably only use the vocal parts during the intro, a break or two, and possibly at the end. And it would be even better if these vocal parts were different, especially if used in connection with the climax of a break. Once you've introduced the theme of the workout, we really don't need to be reminded all the way through. You could even consider using some exercise noises like Kraftwerk did in their updated Tour de France album where they turn the heavy breathing of a cyclist into part of the rhythm track.

But subtlety and variations are the name of the game in this genre. The best tracks like this build you up, let you down, build you up higher, bring you back to a steady pace, drop you down and then build you up to a crushing high and finish with a resounding and euphoric high. And it's done without you really thinking about it.

Not easy. And, I'm afraid it actually takes a lot of time to fully develop tracks like this.

Now . . . young padawan, go out and make me proud!

[Uchdryd]

mayan: No, I wasn't aware of the thread you referred to, but now that I am, I'll look there for info. Thanks!

emdot: I felt myself getting physically exhausted just reading your commentary (thanks for that, BTW) on my song, and I was reminded of why musicians and producers get paid big bucks to do what they do--it's hard work! I'm torn between resurrecting the song to make all the changes which you've convinced me need to be made or just letting it lie in repose in the mausoleum of mediocre and amateurish songs. Honestly, it's really made me think about why I make music, and the simple answer to that is "for my own enjoyment and possibly the enjoyment of others." Since I don't (and probably never will) expect to make any money screwing around with synthesizers and drum samplers and such, I think the best policy--for me--is to work on a song only as long as I find it enjoyable, and then be done with it and move on to another song. I realize I'm basically thinking out loud now, so I apologize for writing all this! Thanks again--very much--for the thorough critique.


Uchdryd

[emdot_ambient]

I felt myself getting physically exhausted just reading your commentary

He he. Sorry about that! I've never made any money at it either, but I can't help obsessing over minute details in my own songs.

...I'm torn between resurrecting the song to make all the changes which you've convinced me need to be made or just letting it lie in repose in the mausoleum...

Sometimes it is best to just move on and take lessons as they come. It's a good policy to work on things only as much as you're engaged in them, provided you do learn and grow. With each step, it does become easier and quicker. Sometimes older material that wasn't quite up to snuff can come back later as fodder for more creative work.

Here's an easy rule of thumb: generally try to make some kind of change at least every 8 measures. Add a new rhythm part while removing an old one; take a MIDI track from one instrument and apply it to a different instrument . . . lots of things can be done.

Above all, try to adopt the attitude that nothing is sacred in your song: everything can be scrapped, changed, switched around . . . that keeps things fresh.

I've done songs where the original tracks that inspired them were later completely abandoned. All that was left were the tracks that the original ones suggested.

Oh, yeah . . . and have fun . . . and if you do nothing esle . . . TAKE ALL CRITICISM WITH A HUGE GRAIN OF SALT. Especially mine. It's your music, after all. You know what it should be better than any of us.

[Uchdryd]

He he. Sorry about that! I've never made any money at it either, but I can't help obsessing over minute details in my own songs.

I can relate to that--I was a perfectionist in a former life. Seriously, my tendency will always be to obsess over minute details, too, but then I get really pissed off when I realize that I spent my ENTIRE SATURDAY trying to get the reverb just right on a vocal track or something--on a song that probably less than ten people will ever hear! I've learned to force myself to accept the fact that not everything in my little world has to be perfect.

Sometimes it is best to just move on and take lessons as they come. It's a good policy to work on things only as much as you're engaged in them, provided you do learn and grow. With each step, it does become easier and quicker. Sometimes older material that wasn't quite up to snuff can come back later as fodder for more creative work.

For that reason I archive all the data files for all the songs I do.

I might add, too, that sometimes an artist's earlier, less polished work is, dare I say, better. Take U2, for example: Clearly their more recent albums are technically superior to their earlier stuff--better instruments, more experience with writing and playing songs, better producers, better studios, etc.--but I much prefer their first two or three albums, in spite of their flaws and lack of polish. Passion and creativity count for more than technical expertise and experience when it comes to music--at least for me.

Here's an easy rule of thumb: generally try to make some kind of change at least every 8 measures. Add a new rhythm part while removing an old one; take a MIDI track from one instrument and apply it to a different instrument . . . lots of things can be done.

I actually try to make some kind of change every 4 measures, but perhaps they're too subtle.

Above all, try to adopt the attitude that nothing is sacred in your song: everything can be scrapped, changed, switched around . . . that keeps things fresh.

I've done songs where the original tracks that inspired them were later completely abandoned. All that was left were the tracks that the original ones suggested.

I would do well to take that advice. I find it difficult to say good-bye to a track that I've spent a great deal of time on and have become attached to. I find myself thinking "I really want this to sound better than it actually does!" But hey, if it doesn't sound good, you gotta trash it for the sake of the song.

Oh, yeah . . . and have fun . . . and if you do nothing esle . . . TAKE ALL CRITICISM WITH A HUGE GRAIN OF SALT. Especially mine. It's your music, after all. You know what it should be better than any of us.

Excellent advice.


Uchdryd