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tigerintheboat
KVRist
 
81 posts since 20 Nov, 2016

Postby tigerintheboat; Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:11 pm Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

When I am building a progression, in the progression editor, or in the main timeline, I can enter a slash chord, as follows: V/VII, which I assume means the V chord, over the VII note in the scale (which is the first inversion of the chord). So example in the key of C would be G chord played over a B note.

In the "preview progression", that seems to be played correctly. But if I put a chord generator in, I just get the main chord, not an inversion, or a slash chord.

Is there something I need to do to make this work? It seems to go in correctly sometimes as an inversion, but other times not.

Also, is there any way to specify the slash chord as meaning a separate lower bass note to be played, not just an inversion?

Thank You.

Tiger
musicdevelopments
KVRAF
 
2730 posts since 9 Jan, 2010

Postby musicdevelopments; Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:05 pm Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

Hi Tiger,

the current way of specifying a separate bass note will soon be removed from the program. It was confusing and was not meant for inversions.
The good news is that version 3.4 (to be released TODAY :party: ) includes an inversion/voicing editor with many presets, so that will be the place to specify voicings.

Also, is there any way to specify the slash chord as meaning a separate lower bass note to be played, not just an inversion?

Yes, this is how it works today, the bass note is independent of the chord, it is a separate, added note. Now I don't see that a good idea.

Thanks,
Attila
http://www.musicdevelopments.com
Music Prototyping And Automated Composition Solutions
tigerintheboat
KVRist
 
81 posts since 20 Nov, 2016

Postby tigerintheboat; Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:44 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

I am, of course, glad you are working on improvements to the program....but I am just back at this now after an interval, re-learning everything. I think my head might explode with the new version :hyper:

So does your second comment mean that to specify a separate bass notes over a sequence or chords you would have to program a separate bass line by hand, or are both inversions and chords over bass notes covered in the inversion/voicing editor?

(Sorry for the questions, but I want to know what to expect)


Tiger :)
musicdevelopments
KVRAF
 
2730 posts since 9 Jan, 2010

Postby musicdevelopments; Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:09 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

I think I don't fully understand your question. :oops: You can specify which note is in the bass in the inversion/voicing editor. For example for a "G major" chord on the master track chord:

Image

Using the separate 'bass' note in each chord is discouraged. I have to ask the community about this, but probably the 'bass' note will mean the lowest note in the voicing in the future, instead of being an independent note of the chord.

Thanks,
Attila
http://www.musicdevelopments.com
Music Prototyping And Automated Composition Solutions
tigerintheboat
KVRist
 
81 posts since 20 Nov, 2016

Postby tigerintheboat; Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:43 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

musicdevelopments wrote:I think I don't fully understand your question. :oops: You can specify which note is in the bass in the inversion/voicing editor. For example for a "G major" chord on the master track chord:

Image

Using the separate 'bass' note in each chord is discouraged. I have to ask the community about this, but probably the 'bass' note will mean the lowest note in the voicing in the future, instead of being an independent note of the chord.

Thanks,
Attila


I am differentiating between a chord played in inversion (your picture shows a second inversion G) and a chord with a base note several octaves below, which may or may not be part of the chord tones. Here I am thinking as a piano player who plays in a jazz style; in my right hand I may use an inversion just because it is handy and provides good voice leading with a previous or next chord. But I may also want to have a descending base line below the chords, which could involve chord tones and tones not in the chord.

For example, an E/D; an E chord played over a D for an interesting sound, or a B-flat played over a C for a suspension sound.

I thought that was what you were trying to provide in the current (soon to be past version) with the slash chords. It didn't do that, which is why I wrote this question in the first place.

I hope this is clear; slash chords play a role in jazz/fake book notation, but this is not a critical point. I just hope you will understand this and consider it for the future.

I look forward to the update; just look for it in the program (under About, I think?)

Tiger
musicdevelopments
KVRAF
 
2730 posts since 9 Jan, 2010

Postby musicdevelopments; Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:22 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

I see. Interesting, so the separate 'slash' note is useful sometimes. It would be a good idea to enable the slash notes on the voicing editor keyboard. Isn't E/D the same as E7 with the voicing where D is in the bass? And Bb/C is Bbadd2?

I have an idea but I am not sure if it would be useful. If not, I won't spend time with this.
I imagine a voicing editor vertically under all chords, where you see the voicing of the neighboring chords, like this:

Image

So, anyone would find this useful?

Yes, you can download the update by clicking on "Check For Updates" under the Support tab.

Thanks,
Attila
http://www.musicdevelopments.com
Music Prototyping And Automated Composition Solutions
lulukom
KVRian
 
690 posts since 30 Nov, 2013

Postby lulukom; Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:33 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

All that is related to the possibilities of jazz in the RC, I certainly strongly support!
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yellukhan
KVRian
 
1280 posts since 10 Mar, 2004

Postby yellukhan; Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:36 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

if i understand right, seeing them all at once & editing in one window .. sounds useful to me!
lulukom
KVRian
 
690 posts since 30 Nov, 2013

Postby lulukom; Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:37 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

+1
horsma
KVRist
 
103 posts since 31 Oct, 2006, from Finland

Postby horsma; Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:14 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

+1
musicdevelopments
KVRAF
 
2730 posts since 9 Jan, 2010

Postby musicdevelopments; Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:14 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

Thanks for the feedback! The more users find this a good idea, the sooner it will be implemented ;)
http://www.musicdevelopments.com
Music Prototyping And Automated Composition Solutions
User avatar
tonedef71
KVRian
 
861 posts since 20 Sep, 2007, from USA

Postby tonedef71; Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:26 pm Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

musicdevelopments wrote:I imagine a voicing editor vertically under all chords, where you see the voicing of the neighboring chords, like this:

Image
Hmm... how would it look when there are many chords per bar? Would several voicing editors being displayed still look legible without zooming?

The chord voicing editor seems fine for chord note entry. I suppose if a user wishes to see an E7 chord (third inversion) instead displayed/notated as an E major chord over D in the bass (i.e. "E/D") in the master track, then perhaps chords in the master track need a way to have their default chord name labels overridden either by one of the following methods:

[1] A new option in RC that can automatically derive the appropriate chord name for a slash chord by isolating the bottom note from the remainder of the chord

[2] A new option in RC for a user to manually specify what chord name to display on the master track
[Intel Core i7 820QM | 32GB DDR3 | Waveform 8; Studio One 4 Pro; FL Studio 20; RapidComposer; Sundog Song Studio; Pizzicato | FL Studio ASIO (WASAPI) | Win10 x64]
nexussynth
KVRian
 
529 posts since 31 Dec, 2003

Postby nexussynth; Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:03 pm Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

+1 would like to see them all at once
"..What is simple, is simply seen.."
tigerintheboat
KVRist
 
81 posts since 20 Nov, 2016

Postby tigerintheboat; Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:13 pm Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

musicdevelopments wrote:I see. Interesting, so the separate 'slash' note is useful sometimes. It would be a good idea to enable the slash notes on the voicing editor keyboard. Isn't E/D the same as E7 with the voicing where D is in the bass? And Bb/C is Bbadd2?

I have an idea but I am not sure if it would be useful. If not, I won't spend time with this.
I imagine a voicing editor vertically under all chords, where you see the voicing of the neighboring chords, like this:

Image

So, anyone would find this useful?


Oh yes, I think it would be very useful. It seemed so real looking at it; is there some kind of option to show voicing like that in the current version? I am serious, I went looking for it and couldn't find it.

As for the chords, something I understand better! If you said "play E7" to a jazz pianist, he might do many things, but one of the least likely would be to put the D alone in the Left Hand several octaves down. He might put a D and a G# in the left hand in the octave below Middle C (a shell voicing, 3 and 7) and then either play the melody and/or the rest of the chord in the right hand. Or an E and a D in the left hand, defining the dominant seventh, and then the third and whatever else in the right hand. Or E and B for the fifth in the LH, or E and G# for the 3rd in the left hand. How to voice the chord, and split it among the hands is quite variable depending on style and circumstances.

And Bb/C isn't a Bbadd2 if the C is in the root; if the pianist plays a C and a Bb in the LH, and a D and F in the right hand, that is C7sus9 (C and Bb define the dominant seventh, and D is 9 and F is the suspended note, in place of the 3rd).

With the D down one or more octaves, and the E chord in the right hand, the best name would be E/D; but if I couldn't use slash chords, I would be forced to call that D69 alt; a D root, with E(9), no 3rd, the G# (11) and the B (6). If you play it on a keyboard, it sounds different than a closed E7 in any inversion, partly because of the separation of the D, and partly because any bass note away from the rest of the chord might give the chord a different "feel."

If you are playing C over a descending bass line...i.e. C/C, C/B, C/A, C/G the slash chord notation would be the best way to define it. You could write C, Cmaj7, Am, C to describe your intention, but not every reader would understand what you meant. The last C wouldn't be voiced with the G under the bottom unless you specified it, or the reader figured it out.

So, slash chords allow you to (1) create modern and unusual sounds that are not in the standard chord rules (polychords), and (2) specify a bass note or sequence to go with a set of chords, sometimes using notes that are not in the chord. They are also used to specify inversions. In a fake book, you are left to guess whether an inversion was meant or not.

But generally I think jazz pianists are prone to reach for whatever inversion works in the context of the song and gives better voice leading, so the notation of a slash note usually indicates one of the two other meanings above (polychords or bass tones). Inversions and chordless voicings are played routinely.

I am very happy to see the voicings you have put in. I have only just begun to play with them, but I imagine they will be very useful. I think slash voicing would be useful as well, but I am much happier right now to have the custom voicings and the presets.

I hope this was helpful. This is all from my own understanding as mostly self-taught wannabe jazz pianist, and maybe is not what is taught is music school or to classical music students. I did verify my meanings of slash chords from a book by Lee Evans called the "professional pianists fake book". Here is his website. http://leeevansjazz.com/

Tiger
musicdevelopments
KVRAF
 
2730 posts since 9 Jan, 2010

Postby musicdevelopments; Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:18 am Re: Chord Inversions or Slash Chords

Hi Tiger,

thank you for the detailed explanation! Now I understand why slash voicing and displaying slash chords would be important. So contrary to my plan to remove the separate bass note, it will remain but extended, and new options will be added, as suggested by tonedef71.

I am serious, I went looking for it and couldn't find it.

:) I am sorry this was just a fake screenshot prepared in a paint program.
I am happy to get so many positive comments about this.

Thank you!
Attila
http://www.musicdevelopments.com
Music Prototyping And Automated Composition Solutions
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