Zen

[MaxSynths]

@Lotuzia: maybe the patches can be "tagged" as "private" or something similar in order to avoid pubblic distribution I think in the end it all depends from the user (this is true also right now without Zen). Anyway this is a good question...

[Big Tick]

Lotuzia, these are valid concerns. Zen addresses them as follows:

- First, users can't share their library over the internet. For most users, it only works one way, e.g, building up a local library of presets published by presets designers.

- Designers like yourself get additional rights, enabling them to publish presets, either free, or commercial ones. Zen plays commercial presets in demo mode (which, at the moment, drops notes randomly). Also, for security paranoid designers, the database supports "preview" presets, where the only thing a user can play in demo mode is an .ogg file preview of the preset. To be honest, though, this isn't implemented yet on the client side, because I feel users are more likely to buy presets if they can really try them in context.

Anyway, regarding your initial question, this means that if someone published one of your copyrighted presets into Zen:
- he is registered as a designer with Zen
- I have his contact info
- I have a proof that he published it
- I can take the preset offline

which is a much better situation than someone publishing your copyrighted presets on a p2p or online files sharing site !

Because users don't want to be limited to public presets only, they can import presets into their Zen *local* database.

Importing them is super easy, just load a preset in the vsti and hit the "import button". Or load a full bank into the vsti, set Zen in "autoimport" mode, and then browse through all the presets in the vsti.

If you have designer rights, things work just the same, but after importing the presets, you can also set a price and a mode (commercial or free) for them, and publish them with 1 click. Then, they are automatically distributed to all users of the synth they were made for, which hopefully, will help you reach a larger audience. Of course you can also change your mind about the classification, add or remove tags, and the updates will be distributed too.

Finally, Zen has a duplicates detection system, so that you can't import a preset that is already present in the database. This is how Zen can deal with special cases, such as a user who bought your presets directly from you and imported them into his local database, before you decided you wanted to use Zen as a distribution channel and publish them in demo form. Or the other way around. In either case Zen recognizes that the user is indeed an owner of your presets, and properly flags the preset as "purchased" (even though it was purchased outside of Zen).

I will happily share details about the file encryption and communication protocol, but not publicly, and only with presets designers.

'Tick

[cytone]

Does Zen allow the VST's GUI to be opened or does it keep it hidden and only act as a preset player. If the former, what is there to stop someone saving a demo preset from the VST's own interface?

[Lotuzia]

Does Zen allow the VST's GUI to be opened or does it keep it hidden and only act as a preset player. If the former, what is there to stop someone saving a demo preset from the VST's own interface?

Thanks for asking, Cytone, for it was my next question.

To this I'll add : what prevents an host like Cubase to save the preset like a metapreset ( Example Vst3 preset ) ?

+ Thanks for the answer Big Tick. Really appreciated I'll get in touch privatly with you, should I need some further details ( Wich admitedly I really need )

I'm relieved you seem to have had an in deep reflexion about the subject. Yet some questions ( Different from the encryption ones ) remains.

I was about to suggest a "compare" preset utility, and I think its really cool you already took care of that.

LtZ

[Big Tick]

Does Zen allow the VST's GUI to be opened or does it keep it hidden and only act as a preset player. If the former, what is there to stop someone saving a demo preset from the VST's own interface?

Both - you can only open the GUI in one of the following cases:
- the preset is free,
- the preset is a commercial one that you have bought,
- or the preset is a commercial one that you have published as a designer.

and no, you can't fool zen by opening the GUI through a free preset, and then moving to a demo one - it will auto-close the GUI window

Because it can be hard to evaluate a commercial preset without being able to tweak its controls, Zen comes with 6 performance sliders. The mapping of these sliders is variable, and depends on the final plugin. This means you don't even need to open the plugin UI if all you want to do is automate a filter cutoff sweep.

'Tick

[cytone]

Thanks the the reply. It sounds really well thought out

[Big Tick]

To this I'll add : what prevents an host like Cubase to save the preset like a metapreset ( Example Vst3 preset ) ?

Well, you can, but what you end up with is a Zen preset - which contains little more than the preset ID. So when loading it back, you can only feed it to Zen, which looks up the ID in its local database, and plays the preset according to its mode (free/demo/purchased).[/i]

[bmrzycki]

For some reason I find the name "Babel" much more apropos for a piece of software such as this.

[Big Tick]

For some reason I find the name "Babel" much more apropos for a piece of software such as this.

Yeah it would have been good too. Zen was my internal code name, and it stuck - thinking of the frustration when trying to locate a preset that sounded cool, but you can't remember where you heard it... especially when dealing with preset monster synths like synth1...

[bmrzycki]

I just realized a tool like Zen would mean I'd probably use impOSCar more. I really really *hate* how it organizes presets but I love the sound of that filter. I was looking to impOSCar 2 to fix it but a tool like this might just do the trick w/o an upgrade fee.

[Big Tick]

Also, Asseca just pointed out to me the legal limits of putting factory presets for commercial synths online - something I had, ahem, sort of overlooked.

So I have asked for permission to the developers of the supported synths. If they disagree, the system will still work, albeit a little differently:

- the factory presets will be tagged, but the associated preset data will be empty.
- users will see the presets in the list, but won't be able to play them.
- in order to play them, they will have to import them locally into Zen. Then the duplicates detection system will do the rest, and merge the public tags with the local preset data.

'Tick

[susiwong]

Wow, this idea could have some potential !
I'm just not sure I completely understood the way it works.
I have some really basic questions from a user's perspective, let me wrap them up in a single scenario :

Let's talk about an Arturia Synth in Cubase 5.
Several unique problems :
- proprietary presets, tons of them
- horrible preset management, just begging for improvement
- not conversion-friendly, at least Cubase can't batch-convert these
- no fxp/fxb support in VSTi or host
- dongle for the VSTi

So here it goes :
1. Will these be supported at all / maybe later / never ?
2. Will the user have to convert them preset by preset ?
3. Will automation work besides the mentioned 6 sliders (only talking about factory content and the Arturia-supplied free addons atm) ?
4. What will show up in Cubase's controller list - the Arturia list, a Zen list or what ?
5. There is a learn function in the Arturias - what about that ?
6. Will there be a "slim mode" only showing the VSTi's UI and a "Zen Bar" that can be expanded to the full Zen view when needed or how will this work ?
7. What about the dongle ?

And please folks, keep the Arturia- and Steinberg- discussions out of here, these are just examples that might be extra problematic for Zen, dunno.
Please forgive my ignorance, I did read all I found yet ...

Thanks for the project and for any replies,
susiwong

[Big Tick]

The basic principle behind Zen is that, however secretive it wants to be, any plugin needs to export its preset data to the host at some point (when the host saves the song). So, even if a vsti doesn't want to load or save fxp's, its preset data is still available for the host. That's what Zen is: a tiny host within the host.

Now to answer your questions:

1. Will these be supported at all / maybe later / never ?

Definitely, at some point. I just need a version of the arturia synth to test.

2. Will the user have to convert them preset by preset ?

No. The autoimport feature in Zen makes it easy to import all the presets - you still have to browse through them on the Arturia synth, though. And of course, you will have to tag them manually in Zen. But because Zen is online (and, in a way, some kind of a "social" app), the entire users community can contribute to the tagging effort.

3. Will automation work besides the mentioned 6 sliders (only talking about factory content and the Arturia-supplied free addons atm) ?

Yes. Automation is still pretty much a work in progress at the moment, but the way I see it, Zen will export 6+N automatable parameters, where N is the number of parameters of the proxied vsti.

4. What will show up in Cubase's controller list - the Arturia list, a Zen list or what ?

Both (again, with the WIP disclaimer): it would show the 6 Zen controllers followed by the Arturia list.

5. There is a learn function in the Arturias - what about that ?

I don't know what this function does - but I guess it is something contained to the Arturia plugin. Maybe midi assignment of the controls. In any case, if it doesn't require any specific cooperation from the host for it to work, then it will still work - Zen is pretty much transparent regarding the host/plugin communication.

6. Will there be a "slim mode" only showing the VSTi's UI and a "Zen Bar" that can be expanded to the full Zen view when needed or how will this work ?

This could actually be an idea. At the moment the Zen UI is always shown, and you can open the VSTI's UI by doubleclicking on a preset.

7. What about the dongle ?

You will still need it, obviously Again, Zen is "simply" a host within the host.

[susiwong]

Hey BigTick,
many thanks for the detailed reply !
This sounds extremely interesting ...
Allow me a few remarks :
- about the dongle, I wanted to know if it works, not if you could crack my legally bought software.
- correct, the mentioned "learn" is for controller mapping, should've been more clear
- about that "slim UI" idea, without having actual hands-on experience obviously, I would like that idea.
For me (guitar player, occasional synth user) the UI is an integral part of an instrument, I'm a firm believer in the theory that e.g. a Minimoog's limitations influenced some classic Moog parts big time ...
So my personal workflow would probably be
"imagine a type of sound > browse presets without need for a specific UI > decide on a certain preset and play around with that",
and in that 2nd phase I'd like to have direct access to the synth's UI.
Maybe it's only me ...
- and Arturia is really just an example, similar issues are with Korg Legacy or others (though Korg at least have decent browsers)
Anyway, I'll keep a close eye on this project for sure, a wonderful, creative idea that might adress some "big " real world problems
Thanks again,
susiwong

[Big Tick]

So my personal workflow would probably be
"imagine a type of sound > browse presets without need for a specific UI > decide on a certain preset and play around with that",
and in that 2nd phase I'd like to have direct access to the synth's UI.

... and that's exactly how it works. See the picture below, where I have been looking for a monophonic synth bass. Zen finds 8 presets (*), from ACE, Synth1 , Zebra and Absynth. I have selected the synth1 preset and the 6 sliders at the bottom of the UI give me quick access to this synth's main parameters for tweaking the preset. I can very easily browse through the presets, whatever the vsti, and try their sound in the mix. And when needed... a double-click on the preset name opens the plugin UI for additional editing.



(*) Of course, when the database is fully loaded and categorized, with hundreds of vstis supported, looking for a monophonic synth bass will probably bring back thousands of results. That's when you will want to drill down the search results with additional tags.