FR (WITHDRAWN) - A global KVR Challenges sub board

[Numanoid]

These are fun games on KVR, and draw attention to this board. So instead of making a mess of the other subsections or having to constantly use the search function to find the challenges, let's port them to one unified place so that everyone(!) can find them.

+10

[Compyfox]

Not sure I see why you'd suggest separate mods. 'we can moderate ourselves' sounds a bit too much like 'I volunteer me for more power'.

I see where this is coming from, but not my attention.

Still, each sub-forum has the Global Mods/Admins (boards) and the "Sub-Forum Moderators" (which can lock/move/split/rename threads and are able to block people - as could be excellently seen in the SKnote sub-board - which was clearly "too much power"). Additional to that, the challenge hosts only have access to moderation rights in this particular section - not anywhere else on the board. So "more power" is limited. And the new mods still have to stick to given rules.

However - the idea behind it is to relieve the mods/admins that are otherwise bombed with the request "please pin/please unpin" or "please move/split". In some cases even "please take action for a trouble maker" (which didn't happen that often so far in any of the challenges).

This distracts them from other more pressing matters, like actual trouble makers, spammers, sock-puppet accounts, etc. So if the challenges and their hosts have the "power" (there is the word again) to handle everything themselves, it's really unloading work from those that keep the page running.

Else, the challenges do run like a well greased additional clockwork themselves.



YMMV of course. But this is why I started this thread last year's summer - to talk about it.

[whyterabbyt]

However - the idea behind it is to relieve the mods/admins that are otherwise bombed with the request "please pin/please unpin" or "please move/split". .

I doubt if its that frequent in the casual competition threads in the first place. Same stuff once a month.

This distracts them from other more pressing matters, like actual trouble makers, spammers, sock-puppet accounts, etc. So if the challenges and their hosts have the "power" (there is the word again) to handle everything themselves, it's really unloading work from those that keep the page running.

But they'd still have to deal with those pressing matters in these forums anyways. Not convinced that a few pins/unpins are a good justification for creating Yet More Moderators.






YMMV of course. But this is why I started this thread last year's summer - to talk about it.[/quote]

[Compyfox]

But they'd still have to deal with those pressing matters in these forums anyways. Not convinced that a few pins/unpins are a good justification for creating Yet More Moderators.

The same could be questioned for "company sub-boards", no?
Look at the history of what happened to some companies, how they used "their powers", etc.

I understand your concern, but if somebody can answer this - then it's the two still active mods and Ben himself. I however am (!) for "mods = hosts of the challenge". Just like the company sub boards.


YMMV of course.

[whyterabbyt]

But they'd still have to deal with those pressing matters in these forums anyways. Not convinced that a few pins/unpins are a good justification for creating Yet More Moderators.

The same could be questioned for "company sub-boards", no?
Look at the history of what happened to some companies, how they used "their powers", etc.

I dont get your point apart from re-re-re-reairing an old grievance once more again. The company forums are moderated by company representatives because they're company forums.

On the other hand, the informal challenge forums are just that, informal. They're certainly not formal enough to require a whole slew of new mods, no matter how long the list of rules some of them appear to have. 'fun games' dont need special moderation.

[Compyfox]

I dont get your point apart from re-re-re-reairing an old grievance once more again. The company forums are moderated by company representatives because they're company forums.

whyte, sometimes you just really piss me off with your "I'm against it, just because..." behavior, you know that?!

With this paragraph, you also defend companies that stepped WAY BEYOND their boundaries and adjusted this with "we're a company, we can do that, because reasons...". A couple of people come to mind. Not just a certain Italian company encounter from around the same time last year. Most of these people are not on KVR anymore either, especially after they were being heavily criticized, have their own sub-boards and user-account locked-away sections for even more right moderation. Those people NEVER got a pat on their fingers, and some that are still around also never will. Because they are "company representatives" (again, I can give a couple of examples where I've had first-hand experience with - but name calling does not belong here).


On the other hand, we challenge hosts have a similar workload like companies (managing the challenge, handling questions in both public/private, contacting people, making deals, "public relations", etc) are not seen as "worthy enough" to be just as "elevated" as companies? Those that bring just as much traffic to the page (the OSC alone is very popular and offers a load of exposure - for over 6 years at this point!).

So where is the (crucial) difference from a One-Man Army selling samples/presets/plugins and asking for a company forum at KVR, and the representatives of a challenge?

On the other hand, the informal challenge forums are just that, informal. They're certainly not formal enough to require a whole slew of new mods, no matter how long the list of rules some of them appear to have. 'fun games' dont need special moderation.

Honest question:
Is this because you refuse to see me as a threat in a possible "powerful position" (read: mod status, for ONE SUB BOARD, and that sub board section only), or you're thinking "nobody should have this power"? Because the latter war clearly abused several times so far - and not only towards me personally (see KVR's company history).

Personal issue - or a global thing?
And no prancing around the topic, please. Because I have a feeling where this is leading to.



Again - the "moderation rights" are merely there to handle threads in the first place, in a transparent manner. If there are three people that handle a challenge, however only one is available, yet a thread needs a topic title change - these "moderators" could do that themselves. It doesn't matter if it's a "fun game" or an "informal challenge". We also have rules, we also have to handle users, etc.

Banning is (to my knowledge) first discussed in the "moderator section" (though I experienced first hand that this can be "ignored/evaded"). And if you've ever used a PHPbb or anything similar, rights can be limited. In a very detailed manner even.

If you raise your voice against activating "ban rights" from specific boards - all the power to you and definitely noted. But in that case, I also vote for removing the very same rights from ALL moderators on KVR Audio up to the two current known/active "global ones" (meaning: no "substitute mod" or "company mod" should have this power). As everything else ensues a possible power abuse (as this can be clearly "abused" and the discussion for kicking/temp-ban/perm-ban can be evaded - company "mods" have this power, again - speaking from experience).

So if we're really touching this topic, especially on "no user/company should have more power than a regular user", only the Grande-Mods and Admins should have this type of power in this case. PERIOD!




I however would rather love to know a date when we have a dedicated sub-forum (with individual folders), and then really kick things off with the challenges (seeing as I've been bringing this FR up since June 2014 now), rather than wasting pages on "opinions on hypothetical power abuse".

Let us handle that, once it actually happens (like the last couple of times, where no "fingers-smacks" where handled either).

Thanks.

[bjporter]

Hi everyone, I'm the organizer of the One Synth Challenge. I'll post a longer response soon, but to be terse: I am very much against any changes. I side mostly with DH Miltz.

[do_androids_dream]

My take on this is that, conversely to Compy's assertion that this will '3) draw even more attention to KVR Audio', I think it will actually lessen traffic and activity around the challenges if it has its own forum area. The only reason I glance into the challenge threads is because they happen to be in the most heavily used parts of the forum - ie. they're in my eyesight stuck at the top of the forum whilst I'm looking at other threads there. If they had a sub forum I would be less likely to look into it if it initially doesn't interest me that much.

[Compyfox]

I have a counter argument to that:
Since day one, I am constantly bombed with "why haven't I seen this sooner?!", "why is there no promotion for it?" "it's sticked, yet I don't see anything happening".

The OSC has a certain popularity already. So the participant amount is fairly constant. Yet I barely find ANYTHING in the Instruments section due to sheer mass of thread posting there. If it had an own section, easier to find. Now don't get me wrong, the OSC also has a dedicated page (that the MC and MCC does not have). But still...


If we had a dedicated section - yes, this can just be as overlooked. Especially if you use the "Custom Forum Settings". Which is why I hope that we get some additional coverage at some point for example with an official news post or whatever.

I mean, in all seriousness.
The OSC draws a lot(!) of attention.
I tweet my fingers off for the Mix Challenge and I am happy for every retweet we get. Luckily enough, the KVR Twitter Account does that. Not every time, but at least with the start of each challenge (so does the OSC, Rekkerd and BPB).
The Music Cafe on the other hand, is really flying under the radar.

Yet in terms of the Mix Challenge, I am still criticized "I didn't even know you exist!", with the occasional "meh, KVR is a songwriters board, not for audio engineers - yadda yadda" (I don't think so, but okay).


We do not need to have a "User Creations" sub board, or add the Music Cafe. But having an own "challenge section" (one for each) would still be nice. So maybe sort it like this:

The Main Forums
- sub pages: instruments, Effects, Hosts, etc

KVR Challenges
- sub page: One-Synth-Challenge
- sub page: Music Cafe Songwriting Competition
- sub page: Mix Challenge
- sub page: Guess that Synth / Sample Set
- sub page: Developer Challenge (exists already, just move it)

Alternatively:

The Main Forums
- sub pages: instruments, Effects, Hosts, etc

KVR Creative Corner
- sub page: Music Cafe (moved out of the "main section", still connected to the player so nothing is lost!)
- sub page: Developer Challenge (exists already, just move it - maybe old DC threads will be moved there, else each DC getting a dedicated sub board from now on))

- sub page: One-Synth-Challenge
- sub page: Music Cafe Songwriting Competition
- sub page: Mix Challenge
- sub page: Guess that Synth / Sample Set


(BONUS)
KVR Market Place:
- sub page: hardware
- sub page: software
- sub page: company sales
- sub page: User creations for sale (music releases, services, etc)

Not a drastic change IMO. Just two moved sub-forums, and three to four new created ones (on the "Guess this Synth" game thing - isn't this basically company marketing? - so maybe no dedicated sub-forum needed). Then make an official announcement in the news, maybe create a link to the parent directory (in this case "KVR Creative Corner" or however you want to call it), done.

Is the idea/request really that crazy?

[do_androids_dream]

Is the idea/request really that crazy?

No, it's not crazy and it might be worth a try. I'm just pointing out that it might become a graveyard sub forum - out of the way of the main 'buzz' if you see what I mean and not really attracting any newcomers. The biggest problem with any internet endeavour is getting traffic to it. If it was in some way promoted quite visually somewhere on kvr's homepage then it could link in to the sub forum but if it's given a sub forum with little fanfare it might do the challenges more harm than good. I'm just thinking aloud though really - I might be full of it on this one lol - just thoughts that came to me reading the thread.

[Compyfox]

I also think that a little bit of backup from the page hosts definitely won't hurt.

But it is also a two edged blade.
a) it can remain as is - like "oh, we have challenges, I will keep an eye on it"
b) it can go super crazy like "ooooh! Free stuff to win - let me join" and suddenly - hundreds of entrants that neither the hosts nor the clients can handle.


I think the biggest problem with the dedicated sub forum will be the "My Forum Section" in the "Customize KVR" dropdown to change your account settings. If you don't have these new sub-boards selected. Then they won't show up. Therefore, no traffic, and people will be like "where did it go?!".

If there is a news report on the other hand every quarter year, then people might be like "oooh - cool!". In general, I'd love to see the admins talk about "new community features" on the KVR news once in a while. So maybe this could all be combined somehow. But then we get back to the two edged blade I was talking about. To be honest, this is something I haven't thought through.

Then again... a link to the parent folder, linked from the main page (e.g. Top Bar, to the right of "Interviews" and #KVRDeals", among the "MORE" dropdown)... maybe this would evoke some more traffic?


I'm a bit puzzled on that. So any feedback would be welcome.

[D.H. Miltz]

The Main Forums
- sub pages: instruments, Effects, Hosts, etc

KVR Challenges
- sub page: One-Synth-Challenge
- sub page: Music Cafe Songwriting Competition
- sub page: Mix Challenge
- sub page: Guess that Synth / Sample Set
- sub page: Developer Challenge (exists already, just move it)

If there's to be a challenges forum, something like the above would be the way to do it, I think. With two exceptions or possible changes: as I said, I'm not sure about the DC going there; and I'd either replace Guess the Synth with something like Other or Miscellaneous or just add another sub page with some such heading, so there's a place for the occasional ones that pop up that don't fit into the main headings (for example, the rekkerd.org ones that are sometimes in Music Cafe, or the Synthmaster song contest currently in Instruments).

[Compyfox]

Excellent points. So let's rename it.

The Main Forums
- sub pages: instruments, Effects, Hosts, etc

KVR Challenges
- sub page: One-Synth-Challenge
- sub page: Music Cafe Songwriting Competition
- sub page: Mix Challenge
- sub page: Miscellaneous Challenges ("Guess that synth", irregular challenges on/in collaboration with KVR)


to debate
- sub page: Developer Challenge (either just move it, leave it among "site stuff", or create a dedicated "DC threads" section - I seem to remember that there was a hidden DC talk/beta one)

[Bigerax]

I believe this could help out with the issues we have been discussing in the thread in MC. I also think adding something about the various competitions to the KVR newsletter could also help (as Compyfox said this may be too much and hurt the challenges). As someone who is new to KVR in general, I can say the Mix Challenge was one of the last things I personally ran across here. The OSC and songwriter challenges came up during my first few searches on the boards. I do think having the challenges together would have to help. Just my 2 cents I'll keep mulling ideas over.

[V'ger]

I was the admin in One Synth Challenge for some years before Bjporter now, and for me there's no doubt that moving the competition away from the top of the instrument forum will hurt it considerably, even if it should go from sticky threads to a subforum there. Going to another corner of KVR altogether will obviously reduce it further.

OSC would never be the success that it is (up to 80 participants and great support by developers) if it wasn't for the fact that there's always new people finding it as the instrument section is the most frequented place at KVR, and that developers would like to get the advertising space always being in sticky threads on top there. The argument that the competition is hard to find is frankly bizarre.

I am no longer involved but for the competition's sake - both participation and developer interest - it ought to stay at it is. It's a proven successful formula. Popular competition threads have over 20 000 views and is surely a benefit for KVR as well. (Popular competitions even have more than 10 000 plays in the archive player alone).