I have finised Phobia Station and would like to know if it suffers from the denormal problem. http://www.noslogan.com/VST/PhobiaStation (Of course other comments, questions, or whatever are also welcome.)
Question: What is this "denormal" thing everyone is talking about? Should my next motherboard not be an Intel compatible board? Are there any sites that offer a brief description of the cause and its effects?
I currently use an AMD XP1700+
I like the idea of being able to create my own synths in SynthEdit and then export them as VSTi's. I've heard people complain about "denormal" problems to those who release their SynthEdit generated VSTi's to the public.
What exactly do I have to worry about? Which processors have this problem? How do I know when I'm having the problem? UGH!
Thanks,
Nathan
Phobia Station
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 185 posts since 3 Nov, 2002
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- KVRer
- 11 posts since 15 Jul, 2001
cool toy but it's a cpu hog !
denormal is a P4 thaang , do a search on the forum for "denormal".
then there's that post by tobybear that exp[lained it all so well/// but im too lazy to look.
denormal is a P4 thaang , do a search on the forum for "denormal".
then there's that post by tobybear that exp[lained it all so well/// but im too lazy to look.
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- KVRist
- 79 posts since 28 Sep, 2002 from Ontario Canada
ok this is great sounds good and i recommend everybody download it and the gui is kickass also, cpu consumption is moderate and works well on my old machine good work 
I don't hate people with Macs, I hate people with Macs that are militant about it.
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- KVRist
- 34 posts since 31 Oct, 2002 from Denmark
hmmm... moderate ... me think notCoreTrooper wrote:ok this is great sounds good and i recommend everybody download it and the gui is kickass also, cpu consumption is moderate and works well on my old machine good work
Running a AMD XP 2000+ here and it uses between 10-20 % CPU power (depending of patch). IMHO somewhat a factor 2 or 3 of what SynthEdit creations generally use.
Cheers
travisdk
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- KVRAF
- 3404 posts since 15 Sep, 2002
On my P4 most patches show up at around 16%. The Midnight Caffeine patch, however, goes through the roof. Maybe a denormal problem?
In a nutshell, the denormal problem happens when the processor decides to switch in to a more accurate method of calculations for extreme numbers. Sounds like a good thing (some Intel engineer was probably proud), but it can suck the life out of a real-time calculation because the alternative calculations take about 30 times as long.
Intel claims that it's a software problem, but it's really just a design decision that happened to work out badly for certain audio applications. Changing the algorithm, threshold detection, or adding noise (many orders of magnitude below audible) fixes the problem.
In a nutshell, the denormal problem happens when the processor decides to switch in to a more accurate method of calculations for extreme numbers. Sounds like a good thing (some Intel engineer was probably proud), but it can suck the life out of a real-time calculation because the alternative calculations take about 30 times as long.
Intel claims that it's a software problem, but it's really just a design decision that happened to work out badly for certain audio applications. Changing the algorithm, threshold detection, or adding noise (many orders of magnitude below audible) fixes the problem.
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- KVRist
- 79 posts since 28 Sep, 2002 from Ontario Canada
to me 20% is good considering other synths i own go from 50% and some to even the 100% mark
I don't hate people with Macs, I hate people with Macs that are militant about it.
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- KVRian
- 758 posts since 5 Jun, 2001
killer synth...lovely gui
cheers.
cheers.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 185 posts since 3 Nov, 2002
Interesting...mistertoast wrote:In a nutshell, the denormal problem happens when the processor decides to switch in to a more accurate method of calculations for extreme numbers. Sounds like a...
Midnight Caffeine is one of my personal favorites!
It sounds like they took a shortcut somewhere in the name of optimizing the use of their processors and inadvertently caused a little strife.
Has anyone heard if they are going to attempt to address the issue in their next line of Processors?
At any rate, I think I shall stick with AMD until I hear otherwise and/or I figure out a way to fix the problem. (Hard to do when you don't own a P4.)
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 185 posts since 3 Nov, 2002
For me CPU usage never goes above 15% on any patch. (Again, using an AMD 1700XP+) Compared to the JXSynth 1.2 which I bought and paid for not too long ago, Phobia is very CPU efficient (I know it's not really! But if you really compare the two... you'll be amazed at how full and rich Phobia can sound at a fraction of the CPU power a synth like JXSynth uses.)
For the sake of conserving what little CPU power I do have, I've added a switch in the upper right corner of the "Fatness" section that allows one to switch off the Fatness section when you're not using it. On many patches, this actually drops CPU usage (on my machine) by up to 50%, bringing usage to a more moderate (but by no means perfect) 5-15%
One note, in SynthEdit (at least in the case of Phobia Station) there are a number of LFO's which do not make any sound but modulate various parameters. The main problem is that the Oscillators (acting as LFO's) are designed to generate sound, and even when their signal doesn’t make it to the audio output they still place a large strain on the CPU. A simple solution is for Jeff to create an LFO that only modulates and does not do any additional calculating for audio. Phobia would use between 4-10% at that point and I could (almost) quit buying so many VSTi's... until then I guess I'm stuck with one (maybe two) instances of Phobia Station.
Side Note: Phobia modulates parameters of certain modules which are often strung together in pairs or triplicate at rates most SynthEdit synths have yet to try (let alone modulate them at all) – hence the sometimes enormous CPU usage... To some it may seem like a waste, but I can’t get the sound I want without it. So until I get a more optimized LFO, I’m stuck with this beast!
Anyway, I’d like to know how to fix the denormal issue. There is a “denormal cleaner” which can be added to SynthEdit synths, but I’m still not sure where to put it; nor do I have a way to test its effectiveness.
Those who are interested may want to try the latest Phobia Station (3.22) as it allows you to deactivate the Fatness control. I guess I will try to fix the denormal issue and then Phobia will finally be done… as for features, I think this synth has everything I need for harsh sounds (not to mention CPU usage wouldn’t really let me add anything else anyway…)
Thanks for all the comments and compliments!
-Nathan
For the sake of conserving what little CPU power I do have, I've added a switch in the upper right corner of the "Fatness" section that allows one to switch off the Fatness section when you're not using it. On many patches, this actually drops CPU usage (on my machine) by up to 50%, bringing usage to a more moderate (but by no means perfect) 5-15%
One note, in SynthEdit (at least in the case of Phobia Station) there are a number of LFO's which do not make any sound but modulate various parameters. The main problem is that the Oscillators (acting as LFO's) are designed to generate sound, and even when their signal doesn’t make it to the audio output they still place a large strain on the CPU. A simple solution is for Jeff to create an LFO that only modulates and does not do any additional calculating for audio. Phobia would use between 4-10% at that point and I could (almost) quit buying so many VSTi's... until then I guess I'm stuck with one (maybe two) instances of Phobia Station.
Side Note: Phobia modulates parameters of certain modules which are often strung together in pairs or triplicate at rates most SynthEdit synths have yet to try (let alone modulate them at all) – hence the sometimes enormous CPU usage... To some it may seem like a waste, but I can’t get the sound I want without it. So until I get a more optimized LFO, I’m stuck with this beast!
Anyway, I’d like to know how to fix the denormal issue. There is a “denormal cleaner” which can be added to SynthEdit synths, but I’m still not sure where to put it; nor do I have a way to test its effectiveness.
Those who are interested may want to try the latest Phobia Station (3.22) as it allows you to deactivate the Fatness control. I guess I will try to fix the denormal issue and then Phobia will finally be done… as for features, I think this synth has everything I need for harsh sounds (not to mention CPU usage wouldn’t really let me add anything else anyway…)
Thanks for all the comments and compliments!
-Nathan
