Berlin Modular (ancient thread)

[Tom Drinkwater]

there is something strange going on with the ring modulator in Bazille.

when ring modulating two oscillators that are keyboard tracking normally the ring modulated sound goes out of tune / changes tuning as if the 2 oscillators are changing pitch by different amounts from each other.

this doesn't happen in ACE using the same sort of module. Nor does it happen in several other synths with ring mod that I've tried. Is it a bug or some different sort of ring modulation?

also, in both ACE and Bazille, the ring mod sound is different depending on whether the right or left sockets are used in addition to the ring mod socket. this is with both knobs right up, so I can't see why it would be different.

is it supposed to be like that? if so why?

I think also that sometimes when swapping the 2 oscs (ie substituting carrier and modulator) that the sound changes. but only sometimes, mostly it is the same. I can't repeat this last issue predictably so I'm not sure though.

[Tom Drinkwater]

on further investigation i think the ring mod tuning issue is that Bazille is simply playing out of tune. I checked with just one sine wave oscillator - the worst note is E at -13.8 cents, but all other notes except A are a bit out of tune.

so then if I ring mod 2 oscs a fifth apart then they are not moving pitch by the same amount, so no wonder the ring mod harmonics change!

the tuning is fairly consistent between octaves. is it set to a special scale or something?

[Tom Drinkwater]

I've been using Reatune to check tuning, i assume it is correct.

ACE isn't perfectly in tune either, but it is many times closer with a maximum error of 0.2 cents - so usually insignificant. I got similar small errors in Diva, Loomer Aspect and Reasynth. NI Massive averaged even lower errors, but max still about 0.2 cents, but it must be getting near some sort of measurement limit.

It had never occurred to me that a plugin could play out of tune except by design!


in Bazille the worst note is actually Eb at about -22 cents, very audible, but only every second octave of Eb is bad!

[Teezdalien]

there is something strange going on with the ring modulator in Bazille.

when ring modulating two oscillators that are keyboard tracking normally the ring modulated sound goes out of tune / changes tuning as if the 2 oscillators are changing pitch by different amounts from each other.

this doesn't happen in ACE using the same sort of module. Nor does it happen in several other synths with ring mod that I've tried. Is it a bug or some different sort of ring modulation?

also, in both ACE and Bazille, the ring mod sound is different depending on whether the right or left sockets are used in addition to the ring mod socket. this is with both knobs right up, so I can't see why it would be different.

is it supposed to be like that? if so why?

I think also that sometimes when swapping the 2 oscs (ie substituting carrier and modulator) that the sound changes. but only sometimes, mostly it is the same. I can't repeat this last issue predictably so I'm not sure though.

Do you realise that the sockets on the right side of the multiples are for amplitude modulation, not ring modulation?
The Eb tuning is still an issue though and hopefully gets a fix with a future update/release.

[justin3am]

Do you realise that the sockets on the right side of the multiples are for amplitude modulation, not ring modulation?

On the Mult/Mix modules, the middle input is labeled RM for Ring Mod. If you feed a unipolar modulation signal (like an envelope) to this input, it will act as a VCA. If you feed a bipolar signal it will act as a Ring Mod... or if you feed different signals to the the left and right inputs the mixer will cross fade between the two signals with a bipolar modulation source. At least that is how I understand it.

I think I can reproduce the issue Tom described. If I feed the output of osc1 to the far left input of the first mixer, then feed osc2 to the RM input of the same mixer, I get a subtle beating effect when I play a D# but not if I play a C. This occurs even if I turn the Osc drift off.

[Bronto Scorpio]

I guess the detuned D# bug is back. Zebra had a same problem some months (years?) ago. I guess Urs somehow overlooked it when he updated Bazille.

Cheers
Dennis

[Teezdalien]

On the Mult/Mix modules, the middle input is labeled RM for Ring Mod. If you feed a unipolar modulation signal (like an envelope) to this input, it will act as a VCA. If you feed a bipolar signal it will act as a Ring Mod... or if you feed different signals to the the left and right inputs the mixer will cross fade between the two signals with a bipolar modulation source. At least that is how I understand it.

I think I can reproduce the issue Tom described. If I feed the output of osc1 to the far left input of the first mixer, then feed osc2 to the RM input of the same mixer, I get a subtle beating effect when I play a D# but not if I play a C. This occurs even if I turn the Osc drift off.

Thanks for the clarification, guess it's a bit confusing then, as it is stated in one of Urs' Bazille videos and the ACE manual that the two left sockets are for RM and the two on the right for AM.
But what your saying actually makes more sense, seeing as I get RM in the right hand sockets blended with the original signal when modulated with an oscillator/LFO.
If modulated with an envelope, I also get AM in both the left and right hand sockets, although the envelope is inverted for the right hand side.
Does this sound right?

[Urs]

I guess the detuned D# bug is back. Zebra had a same problem some months (years?) ago. I guess Urs somehow overlooked it when he updated Bazille.

Cheers
Dennis

Its been a compiler setting iirc. Might be able to fix that quickly...

[Urs]

If modulated with an envelope, I also get AM in both the left and right hand sockets, although the envelope is inverted for the right hand side.
Does this sound right?

Yes

[Teezdalien]

Thanks Urs. Must say out of all the synths I have to use, I get the most enjoyment out of programming Bazille and am really looking forward to this and Berlin Modular getting released.

[Tom Drinkwater]

So just to be clear - there shouldn't be any difference in the right and left sides of the Mult/Mix modules? (assuming both are turned full up)

I'll check again the difference I was getting.

[justin3am]

Some drum sounds for Bazille

http://www.3amnoise.net/bazille_drums3am.zip

some demos
http://www.3amnoise.net/bazille_drums3am-01.wav
http://www.3amnoise.net/bazille_drums3am-02.wav
(I used Zebrify as a compressor on both of these)

These aren't anything special but someone might find them useful. The cymbals and hats should be played above C4, kicks and loose snares should be played below C2. Experiment with velocity and the mod wheel. On duomodtom, try hitting two notes at a once.

[Crackbaby]

WoW! The kick in 01 sounds amazing!!! It sounds very 'alive'
All the other drums sounds great as well Instant download Thanks!

[Tom Drinkwater]

In Bazille there's no way to modulate the rate of one LFO with another is that right?

and do the ADSRs loop? I can't seem to get them to, not sure what all the controls do yet. What are snappy and const? There's no manual yet right?

LFO1 seemed to forget some of it's settings when reloading a patch, not sure what happened there I'll see if it does it again.

[Tom Drinkwater]

another FR idea, for bazille and potentially all synths with a scope, could the scope have an optional patch cable to spy on any part of the patch? it would be great to troubleshoot stuff by looking at what is at a particular output without having to change the patch and route it to the main outputs.