Why is Mac OSX so slow compared to Windows, especially using Logic and MainStage, despite better HW?

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Hi folks (you Apple folks, you will hate this post, but sorry, that's my findings),

so I got a report about high CPU usage of MVintageRotary on a MacBook Pro using Apple MainStage, so I started to investigate. And the findings are more than surprising.

Below are the details, but there's the story

I first tried to run the plugin on multiple computers. Mac OS X lost on every front compared to Windows, but even weirder was that Reaper was 50% faster than Logic and about 3x faster than MainStage!!!

So I thought, maybe it's the compiler or my code. So I did a benchmark of all the stuff from primitive floating point computations to complicated vector stuff, sorting etc. And guess what - Mac OS X won!

I was using MSVC 2005, so I thought, ok maybe that's really old now :D. So I upgraded to MSVC 2012 and it indeed got faster, but nowhere to Mac OS X! Sadly I cannot check LLVM.

Anyway so I start browsing and found a few benchmarks and indeed, single core computing on MacBook Pro i7 2.8GHz is faster even than my desktop PC i7 3.8GHz, but in practice the MacBook is close to unusable.

All benchmarks confirm it and I did quite a few, because I just couldn't believe the results. It's not the code, it's not the compiler, it's the OS and host. I was watching a few people working with Mac OS X and was pretty surprised they really do survive it's laziness :D. Personally I hate it obviously, one has to wait all the time and stuff, but I was suspecting half of the problem is the HW. But not, the hardware is actually really fast!

So how did Apple manage to convert such a good hardware into something so slow??

Any ideas? I think the whole multithreading model on Mac OS X stolen from million years old unix could be the answer. But still...


How did I start testing in the beginning

In all hosts I created an empty project and start adding tracks with one instance of the plugin, I ensured all tracks are armed and playing. No GUI showed, so only processing took place. I used 44kHz sampling rate, 256 samples buffer size. Each track contained a simple short wave file or audio input in case of MainStage. Both systems are fully up to date, drivers and stuff of course... Both are working properly. ASUS is slightly newer, but the config is actually worse, which was confirmed by the benchmarks I didn't have that time. I only used 32-bit hosts. The plugin is using an exactly same code on both platforms, compiled using new LLVM on Mac, and more than 10 years old Microsoft VC on Windows (so another obvious advantage for Mac).

MacBook Pro i7 2.8GHz, 4GB DDR 1333GHz with Mac OS X Mavericks

These are the number of tracks I was able to create before the audio engine started choking (higher is better of course):

Reaper: 10
Logic 9: 7
MainStage 9: 3 !!!

ASUS ZenBook i7 2.4GHz, 4GB DDR 1333GHz with Windows 8

Personally I think Win 7 are better and faster than Win 8 (except for startup), but guess what:

Reaper: 31 !!!

Any logical conclusion???

Ok, so I always suspected Mac OS X is slow, but that much??? This makes the PC 3x faster than MacBook... The the HW is faster! This is just impossible...

And the differences between hosts on Mac??? I suspect, that MainStage isn't even able to use the multiple cores, because the system performance meter actually didn't show a high CPU use! In fact, when it started choking, it was showing 20%. So I assume MainStage is using just a single thread! Now is it really that amateuristic piece of junk from 1980ths or is it possible to enable it?? Logic apparently uses 2 threads (or it has extremely high overhead), maybe because the computer has 2 cores, but it has 4 logical CPUs, so it should use 4...

Is there someone, who can explain to me, what I did wrong or how is that even possible in a world, where Apple has the nerve to claim they produce the best OS on the market???... I'm just pissed right now... :x
Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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I forgot, here are some benchmark results between the ASUS and MacBook:

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/561252
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/561250
Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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Just my highly personal observation and thoughts.

I abandoned Windows when OSX was at Snow Leopard 10.6 and I've been the happiest guy ever. Still am. My iMac is overpriced but I really couldn't care less. I've had less problems 10.6 than I ever had with Windows XP/7/Vista. Effups with sound cards with the wrong chipset and IRQ and what else is just a painful memory in the back of my head.

That being said - my Macbook that once were running smooth is now the slowest thing imaginable. First I upgraded to Lion. Bad. Then I jumped to Mavericks. Worse. Now my laptop is close to unusable.

Conclusion. OSX is now the new Windows. Slow, bloated and nasty. My iMac is still running 10.6 and that's the way I intend to keep it.

/C
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Thanks. Unfortunately it doesn't explain the problem. Macs indeed seem to have good hardware. But how is it possible it is now so slow. It is on Mavericks though, so it is actually possible it's the case. But as far as I remenber my Mac was slow with Snow leopard as well. But I think people have different "acceptance" for speed. I have seen so many Apple users claiming how fast and stable it is, yet when they were showing me I almost could nake a nap :D. For me Windows 7 is the fastest, Windows 8 seemed to be problematic when it has been released, I don't know now with Windows 8.1. Anyway results of my benchmarks are just extreme...
Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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I have possibly one of the newest and most ultimatest macbook around. I run with windows 7 bootcamp, and the same programs tend to run a lot more smooth and quick on the windows part, although i haven't done any actual testing.

As for stability, the macbook (and osx) itself is very stable, but as soon as it's exposed complicated processing / external hardware it becomes very unreliable.
Whether or not the macbook is the faster one is irrelevant in my opinion (for my model at least): As soon as you use more than 80% cpu on core, the die temperature instantly rises to 100 C (all macbooks of this type has this problem) - which makes the very powerful cpu practically unusable. On windows i clocked the cpu to 70% max so the computer doesn't kill itself in 6 months and even then, i built a rig with external fans that cools the computer (sigh).

Logic in general is just a slug IMO, even with nothing loaded. Resizing the mixer is a choppy operation.

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I noticed it the most with screen set changes. On windows the screen set changes were instant with v5. Running v5 on mac increased the changing time dramatically, and it's only gotten worse regardless of how many cores/gb of ram I have. :(

-Sam

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Mayae: That's what I thought! It's just weird that so many "apple lovers" just ignore that... And yes, the MacBooks are overheating as well, hence also loud as well...

masterhiggins: What do you mean by "screen set change"? And v5?
Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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Sorry, I meant screen sets like "1" for arrangement window, "2" for mixing, "3" for piano roll/hyper/event list editor, etc. now it's slow as hell even without a heavy CPU load on my i7 MacBook Pro.

-Sam

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Aaaaah, I did found about it just recently. It seems that Logic is destroying and recreating all plugins' GUI every time you do it. Not exactly efficient...
Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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Yeah kind of a shame. On an ancient pentium 4 the changes were lightning fast. As of right now I'm addicted to the environment in logic and haven't seen anything else exactly like it in other daws, especially the newer ones, where midi has a tendency to be demoted to the backseat duties of of linear recording/playback.

-Sam

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Well, try Cubase, it has always been my favourite. And unlike Logic all the routing is awesome (e.g. routing MIDI in Logic is nearly impossible) and won't get you carpal tunnel :D
Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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I started programming midi apps on mac in 1985 and was real mac-gingoist til maybe 1998. But have finally given up completely because I'm too dumb and lazy to keep rewriting my programs on every whim of Apple's non-stop relentless os revisions and deprecating of old code that wasn't broke til apple made it thataway. :)

So anyway perhaps 1998 I had a "real fast" mac with a 10,000 rpm scsi type 0 raid, and a midline win 98 puter with 7200 rpm cheap ide drives. Was tasked with writing a very simple utility that would read audio tracks and merge them into multi track files, or vice versa. After first writing the mac version, was surprised to find the "cheap" pc skunking it on performance, merging or splitting the files about 3X faster than the mac. Both programs were written non optimized high level language, so I spent some time trying every trick could think of to speed up the mac version, but regardless the slow pc kept skunking my fast mac.

Anyway haven't recently bought new puters. The 8 core mac pro skunks rhe 4 core pc on all benchmark tests, though the pc has slightly faster clock. Same brand of drives in both machines. But the mac pro doesn't seem to work any faster. In fact, apparent disk speed still seems a sore point. I have fairly large data on both machines. In the ballpark of 3/4 terrabyte. Full-backup the pc is painfully slow, an overnight process, but full backup the mac is a multi-day process.

A few times a year I have to copy folders with 1 or 2 hundred GB of audio files from one location to another, which is outrageously painful on both machines, but ever so more painful on the mac pro.

Both machines seem slower every day. Seem to take forever to start up or shut down. I did try mavericks out of curiosity, which did seem slower than 10.6, and it broke even more of my old programs. Even broke my audio interface and had to dig out an old usb test interface for which new drivers were available, just to get audio working, so went back to 10.6.

Have wondered if anti virus software or security fixes have slowed down both puters even more. Or maybe it is a perception of slowness, rather than reality. Am too paranoid to operate without security precautions on the network. Would be interesting to maybe dedicate a music machine, yank out the ethernet cable, remove all security features, and see what happens.

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:D :D Whau what a long story!!!

I'm glad I can finally see, that I'm not the only one! It always felt to me extremely slow and unreliable, but all the brainwashed Apple-zombies shouting everywhere, how awesome Apple is, made me think that maybe I'm wrong. So I did the benchmark and was even more surprised... damn Apple... :D At least I'm glad I'm not imagining it!
Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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MeldaProduction wrote:but all the brainwashed Apple-zombies shouting everywhere, how awesome Apple is
Of course, how dare anyone have an experience different to yours. Computing is a very personal thing, with many factors involved as to what dictates user preference, so how about you not call anyone who sees differently a brainwashed zombie ?? :roll:

i can't speak to your experience, nor have any experience as a coder. I do have issues with 'the apple way' on a few different counts, but I wouldn't change my day-to-day user experience for any other current os. Who knows what the future may bring ?

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Woah. Sorry guys. I try not to post in the dsp/development section as I'm not technically a developer and that probably irritates the actual developers that deal with this stuff on a daily basis. I just saw the thread and posted without looking at the forum section. I'll try to steer clear. :)

-Sam

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