KVR Audio

stratum · Post by **stratum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:42 pm

Apparently Apple has a "new" language. By "new", I mean probably at least 3 years old, but since the Apple platform is not particularly relevant to my day time job, I tend to ignore it.

Anyway.. it looks like Objective C will eventually be replaced with a Pascal-like language that is also reminiscent of D, in the sense that it's an application oriented language but one without obligatory garbage collection. OK, not jaw-dropping or particularly interesting but makes sense, not everybody needs C++, and not everyone wants Java.

I am also aware that Apple can afford to create their own ecosystem composed of developers who would follow whatever they do and do nothing else, but I mean, seriously, do you really feel like, as a developer your time should be spent on it or should your company's resources be spent on a new language whose supporting libraries only work on a particular platform and nowhere else? As far as I can see the fact that the core of it is open source does not seem to be good enough to gain wide acceptance.

End of rambling.

syntonica · Post by **syntonica** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:32 am

I haven't been using it, but it's a far cry better than Objective-C as a lot of the fiddly stuff is already baked in. Cocoa in Obj-C is the stuff of Greek tragedy. I think it's closer to C# or Fantom than Java, but it's been awhile since seriously I looked at it.

The key here is Apple-only, as in iOS and maybe macOS.

If I was going to be Apple-only, I'd definitely jump on that bandwagon. Graphics would be easier and the C++ bridge to VST-land would probably be easier, too. I don't see Swift taking the Windows world by storm any time soon.

gnjp · Post by **gnjp** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:42 am

The key here is Apple-only, as in iOS and maybe macOS.

Mac most definitely and..
Linux: https://swift.org/download/#releases
Windows: https://swiftforwindows.codeplex.com

No direct support for UI on Linux and Windows, so mainly CLI and server side code. As with Objective-C Apple doesn't recommend calling Swift in real-time audio threads, due to possible memory allocations etc, so you end up dropping down to C or C++.

stratum · Post by **stratum** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:22 am

What's odd about Apple in general can be seen even in a 3 years old language:

https://swift.org/migration-guide/

Backward compatibility? No forget about it. You are supposed to be migrating code. I wonder how that would be happening if the code to be migrated wasn't a 5-10K lines long iPhone app.

xoxos · Post by **xoxos** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:46 pm

just a thought on platform,

haven't looked for any stats but experientially it seems to me that u.s. military personnel seem to defer to apple quite a lot.

stratology · Post by **stratology** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:33 pm

Not a developer here, but just to state the obvious: Apple does both hardware and software.

So the best way to take advantage of new developments in both hardware and software (OS) is to use their own programming language, rather than a generic, cross platform one.

Example: Swift automatically takes advantage of new features in APFS, without devs having to write any additional code.

resynthesis · Post by **resynthesis** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:30 pm

But that should be an API feature not language

Guillaume Piolat · Post by **Guillaume Piolat** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:58 pm

Should your company's resources be spent on a new language whose supporting libraries only work on a particular platform and nowhere else?

Honestly I'm a bit fed up with powerful companies releasing weaponized languages to lock you into their marketplace, where they get 30% of your added value.

stratology · Post by **stratology** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:49 pm

resynthesis wrote:But that should be an API feature not language

If you watch the "What's new in APFS" session of WWDC 2017, they show what I'm referring to.

stratology · Post by **stratology** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:58 pm

Guillaume Piolat wrote:
Should your company's resources be spent on a new language whose supporting libraries only work on a particular platform and nowhere else?
Honestly I'm a bit fed up with powerful companies releasing weaponized languages to lock you into their marketplace, where they get 30% of your added value.

Haha, 'weaponised language', brilliant.

Seriously, iOS development is profitable, and has a huge audience, that's what makes it attractive. Xcode still supports Objective C, C++, etc, so there's no lock in.

For Mac and iOS development, you get free, fully featured, professional developer tools. Comparable tools on other platform cost thousands.

Apple takes 30% - for that, developers get immediate worldwide distribution on a busy, highly visible market place, without having to do any of that themselves.

Another thing that I haven't seen others do is something like Swift Playgrounds, which is a fantastic, free learning tool for kids.
Tim Cook gave props to some kid developers during the keynote.

resynthesis · Post by **resynthesis** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:20 pm

stratology wrote:
resynthesis wrote:But that should be an API feature not language
If you watch the "What's new in APFS" session of WWDC 2017, they show what I'm referring to.

Oh, I'm speaking from ignorance

I'm not an Apple dev and have no intentions of being one

syntonica · Post by **syntonica** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:35 pm

stratology wrote: For Mac and iOS development, you get free, fully featured, professional developer tools. Comparable tools on other platform cost thousands.

Ooh so much irony there... Remember Atari's dig: "Power without the Price"? Referring to both ownership and development.

Zaphod (giancarlo) · Post by **Zaphod (giancarlo)** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:29 pm

stratum wrote:What's odd about Apple in general can be seen even in a 3 years old language:

https://swift.org/migration-guide/

Backward compatibility? No forget about it. You are supposed to be migrating code. I wonder how that would be happening if the code to be migrated wasn't a 5-10K lines long iPhone app.

LooooooooooooooooooooooooL
This is LoooooooooooooooooooooooL
Man, seriously NOPE
This apple thingy is ridiculous

stratum · Post by **stratum** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:49 pm

This apple thingy is ridiculous

Actually is, apparently "the migration tool" is built into the compiler.
That's what the rest of the world calls "backward compatible".
But no, their dictionary doesn't have that word, so they can't have it even when they do, therefore they build "migration" into the compiler.

Zaphod (giancarlo) · Post by **Zaphod (giancarlo)** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:02 pm

It seems a result of poor design and fix

Who is using Swift?