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Kriminal
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Postby Kriminal; Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:17 am

ostfront wrote:
chokehold wrote:Maybe it's possible for KVR to say "no EU transfers on our U.S. based website". // EDIT: transfers = sales
Maybe it's not.
Maybe KVR have to allow EU transfers and deal with them.
Maybe they don't.
...
I don't know.


Well, obviously, kvr is under US jurisdiction, i.e. under US law.


Is it?
classic
KVRian
 
1492 posts since 26 Jul, 2004

Postby classic; Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:20 am

chokehold wrote:Well, I'm not a lawyer or law student, so I apologize for partaking right away.

I am a German (and thereby EU) citizen though, and the 'case' is clear:

The already ruling EU law says, not quoted directly: by buying a personalized license, the right to re-sell this personal license to someone else is not lapsed/dead/extinct. (whatever the right word is)

So by buying a license that's person-specific, like just about everything that's licensed to user's accounts at developer websites, you as a buyer DO get the right to re-sell the software license to someone else at least once.

It is completely irrelevant what the developers claim in their EULA, because buyer-seller contracts cannot stand above ruling law.

Remember how it is with OEM software ... KVR claims that selling/buying OEM software is illegal. The fact is: here in Germany it's not, because ruling law says (again, not quoted) that software MUST NOT be made exclusive to a specific set of hardware.

That means: your license of Windows 7 MUST NOT be made exclusively usable on this one CPU, mainboard and GFX card combo you might have going on, but you MUST have the right to sell the license and use it on another set of hardware. Not at the same time, but after an upgrade, for instance.

Windows calls it "activating", that means it phones home to MS to tell them what CPU serial, HDD serial, GFX card serial etc. it is being activated on.

I myself have bought an OEM version (I think the correct name was System Builder) of Windows 7 here in Germany, installed it on my old system and used it for a year or two, and then upgraded my system to better hardware.

As the license was "bundled" to my old system by activating it on it, of course it didn't activate on the new set of hardware I had. I contacted Microsoft, they told me "everything's fine ... contact the one you bought it from, he is forced to issue you a new license". So I did contact the guy who sold me this OEM version, and he did issue me a new OEM license to use on my new hardware.

Also, this ruling "OEM law" makes it LEGAL in Germany to install OSX on non-Apple hardware, even though Apple request otherwise in their EULA. Building and using a so-called "Hackintosh" is NOT ILLEGAL in Germany.

And why?
Because the law says so.
It is completely irrelevant that the DVD has some "not licensed for resale" blurb printed on it and that the Win7 and OSX EULA state otherwise.



So, back to topic, where the fact is:
We have an active and ruling EU law, that explicitly rules personal licensing inside the EU, granting at least first-buyers to re-sell their licenses.

I haven't checked, but I'm sure the legal text has been linked here or in the other thread. If not, tell me, I'll dig it out (multi-language) for you.

In other words:
I as a European citizen have the LEGAL RIGHT to sell my personalized licences for software that comes from companies residing in Europe, such as -for example- Image Line who sit in Belgium, if I'm informed correctly.

Cakewalk and Apple for example are U.S. companies, so I'm pretty sure this EU law doesn't concern them because, well, the U.S. is not the EU.

But it's completely irrelevant what Image Line may say in their EULA, or however their support or people around KVR (always thought 'tony tony chopper' was IL?) might campaign it.

Image Line (just for example, all other EU-based companies as well) have to obey this ruling EU law and let their customers sell their personalized licenses at least once.

This also gets very interesting when it comes to things like Valve's Steam service.

The thing is: they don't want to let us sell our licenses.
Of course.
Letting people sell their unwanted stuff makes fewer new sales.

So I'm pretty sure that unless some EU citizen like myself goes the official route by 1) requesting permission to sell at IL, 2) receiving denial from IL and 3) contacting a lawyer to go before court with this case ... absolutely nothing is going to happen.
Nada, zilch, naught.

Anyone feel like the chosen one...?




Another big factor is that KVR is a U.S. based website, yes, but its users come from all around the world. I and a lot of others I've come across here over the years live inside the EU, not the U.S.

U.S. laws do not apply to us.
EU laws do.

Plainly going by "EU citizens can't sell their licenses for software of EU-based companies because the companies might say so in their EULA" and locking threads with the justification of "dunno." isn't the right approach.

After all, if I as a EU citizen wish to sell my license for a product of a EU-based company to another EU citizen ... then that is my legal right - inside the EU.
No need to lock or ban or "administer" otherwise - inside the EU.
Don't know how that relates to "EU transactions over U.S. website" though.

Maybe it's possible for KVR to say "no EU transfers on our U.S. based website". // EDIT: transfers = sales
Maybe it's not.
Maybe KVR have to allow EU transfers and deal with them.
Maybe they don't.
...
I don't know.

I think this matter of "EU transactions over a U.S. website" should be discussed between KVR and their lawyers, as I don't want to make assumptions here.

Just to be clear: I'm not suggesting KVR and their admins/mods are doing anything wrong, and especially not doing it deliberately!
I'm just saying KVR should be law-wise secured in this international legal mix-up, so in our collective interest... "guys behind KVR", please clarify what's the right thing for you to do.




So if I bought Imposcar 1 second hand I cant resell it because I bought this license especially for this version.
But if I bought the next version imposcar 2 for a discount of (what ever price) I can sell THIS licence for sure because it has a different serial key and is not the original license???

Would like to soll my Imposcar account of trade it for Zebra or Dune:)

cheers
classic.
Juanjo
KVRian
 
822 posts since 5 Jan, 2006, from Premià

Postby Juanjo; Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:21 am

chokehold wrote:...
In other words:
I as a European citizen have the LEGAL RIGHT to sell my personalized licences for software that comes from companies residing in Europe, such as -for example- Image Line who sit in Belgium, if I'm informed correctly.

Cakewalk and Apple for example are U.S. companies, so I'm pretty sure this EU law doesn't concern them because, well, the U.S. is not the EU.
...


This I don't get... the ruling linked in the first post is against Oracle International Corp. which as far as I know is a US-based company, so it should follow that the law applies whenever the "buyer" and "seller" are EU citizens and the company simply operates in the EU (i.e. sells software to EU citizens), regardless of where it's based... what am I missing?

(just following the issue with interest)
The mind boggles.
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Resonator63
KVRAF
 
3569 posts since 1 Oct, 2006, from Um! Where is this?

Postby Resonator63; Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:24 am

Can you exchange an NFR license for another NFR license?
That way you're not selling,you're exchanging :hihi:
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
25105 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:39 am

Kriminal wrote:
ostfront wrote:
chokehold wrote:Maybe it's possible for KVR to say "no EU transfers on our U.S. based website". // EDIT: transfers = sales
Maybe it's not.
Maybe KVR have to allow EU transfers and deal with them.
Maybe they don't.
...
I don't know.


Well, obviously, kvr is under US jurisdiction, i.e. under US law.


Is it?


Yes.

http://www.kvraudio.com/aboutkvr.php

Not that it matters. Whether such license transfers are legally allowed or not, it doesnt mean KVR is somehow forced to allow advertising of them here. They can ban such adverts if they wish.
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."
ostfront
Banned

Postby ostfront; Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:44 am

whyterabbyt wrote:Im not going to read someone deliberately misrepresenting me and not do anything about it, thanks.


Sorry, whyterabbyt, I didn't know that. Of course, you have the right to defend your opinions and your integrity. And so does everybody else. And that is how fights start. Oh well. I'm outta here!
kritikon
KVRAF
 
5062 posts since 23 May, 2002, from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Postby kritikon; Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:17 pm

This I don't get... the ruling linked in the first post is against Oracle International Corp. which as far as I know is a US-based company, so it should follow that the law applies whenever the "buyer" and "seller" are EU citizens and the company simply operates in the EU (i.e. sells software to EU citizens), regardless of where it's based... what am I missing?


Not missing anything. A company trades in a country by that country's laws. Simple as that. It doesn't matter where they're based (apart from dodging taxes...)
tony tony chopper
KVRAF
 
3563 posts since 19 Jun, 2002

Postby tony tony chopper; Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:02 pm

Knowing your nature and attitude, and by seeing how many times you pissed on your customers because they bought your product without trying it first - i am finding above statement a bit bold and ironic..


What did we ever release that didn't have a demo version? (edit: true, there's FL Mobile that has no light version, & I don't like that)
There is no reason for someone to buy an IL product without having tried it first, what we really encourage. On the iPad or Steam on the other hand.. they manage to sell you crap that you wouldn't have bought if you could have tried it. There's that good old "cooling off period" law, but guess what, it doesn't apply to software.

& yes, if you've tried something, decided to buy it, and realize you don't like it, you're the one to blame.
Last edited by tony tony chopper on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DOLPH WILL PWNZ0R J00r LAWZ!!!!
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Postby deleted; Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:10 pm

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
 
2762 posts since 25 Jan, 2009, from Forgotten Realms

Postby IncarnateX; Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:23 pm

tony tony chopper wrote:& yes, if you've tried something, decided to buy it, and realize you don't like it, you're the one to blame.


Pfft! What if I did like it but in the end just got tired of it and want something new, am I still to blame then? Your life time updates does not take one of the most basic psychological facts into account, namely habituation and boredom. Thankfully a lot of other companies have such basic insights.
tony tony chopper
KVRAF
 
3563 posts since 19 Jun, 2002

Postby tony tony chopper; Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:30 pm

what if i decide to stop making music itb or quite making music at all? surely i would be happy to make some funds by selling things ( read licenses ) i don't need any longer?


I wasn't talking about license transfer. My point on license transfer is that yes, it should definitely be allowed, & that I wouldn't do free lifetime updates (as they both conflict), but I don't decide of such things, I'm a programmer. You should definitely be allowed to resell your stuff, at their current "aged" value. Unless you got a TB303, chances are that your very old hardware is worth much less than its original price. Software (quickly) ages too, as long as updates aren't free, so that's fine, a copy of Photoshop 3 is probably worth a buck or 2 today. Now imagine if you could sell a Photoshop 3 at the price of the latest one, things would be very different.

The thing is that software can have any value you want. It's not like it costed anything to make a copy (especially online). The cost of software is the cost to develop it, then the ways to find the money can be many (funded by another software, by ads, by states, by selling a few expensive copies or many cheap ones, or all of that).


OEM versions, they're too a way to gather money. A company doesn't earn much money on a OEM version, but it's still money, and when it's bundled with thousands of boxes, it can matter. It's still money & it's not lost money, as the major part of the buyers wouldn't have bought the software. Now, if you start seeing people reselling OEM versions, like they bought a $50 piece of hardware, bundled with an OEM version of a $100 app, & manages to resell it.. the user made a profit & that's great for him, but the company basically lost $99. So, it doesn't really matter whether you can resell OEM or not, what matters is whether people do it or not. You can imagine that if people were doing this regularly, OEM would totally disappear. You'd be able to resell something that doesn't exist anymore, & when you'll buy hardware it won't come with any software. While usually hardware comes with unneeded crap, think of OSes (a big part of the cost of a computer, & yet still several times less than a normal license) & necessary apps.
DOLPH WILL PWNZ0R J00r LAWZ!!!!
Kriminal
Banned

Postby Kriminal; Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:39 pm

tony tony chopper wrote:What did we ever release that didn't have a demo version? (edit: true, there's FL Mobile that has no light version, & I don't like that)


tony tony chopper wrote:On the iPad or Steam on the other hand.. they manage to sell you crap that you wouldn't have bought if you could have tried it.


like FL Mobile?

tony tony chopper wrote:I'd like to know about the law too, because I'd like to resell most of the iPad crap that I bought without any demo to try out first.


like FL Mobile?
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Postby deleted; Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:40 pm

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
 
2762 posts since 25 Jan, 2009, from Forgotten Realms

Postby IncarnateX; Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:48 pm

tony tony chopper wrote:I'd like to know about the law too, because I'd like to resell most of the iPad crap that I bought without any demo to try out first..


Just noticed that now. Apple has a 30 days refund policy. Just choose "report a problem" linked in your email invoice and tell why you are dissapointed and want the money back. I got my money back with a few bummers this way. :)

However this thread is not about demo versions but no transfer policies and in this charge both apple and Image Line are guilty. Having a demo version for your product is no compensation or excuse.
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Postby deleted; Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:55 pm

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