What kind of music you'd hate?

[lotus2035]

....but most musics for me can be broken down into two lists; it is all about 'are the musicians doing their job right', yes/no, and a lot can be overlooked if they really are. This tarncey shite is not being done by musicians, it's just legoland in place of a world, so it for me is really unfortunate and a sign of end times.

I agree that today's EDM is a dead donkey. I stopped listening to tarnce back around 1999 when the Super DJ Cult took over and I hate the tired old cookie cutter formula as much as the next f**ker.

Your huge generalisation that "tarncey shite is not being done by musicians" may very well apply to a fair few of the latest off-the-shelf "producers" but if you think that all Trance/EDM period since the early 90's was done by the musically challenged then you're wrong and totally out-of-touch on the matter.

Much of early trance and later into the 90's originated in the cities of Germany and other European countries including the U.K. and many of the people involved in the scene had backgrounds in classical music, jazz, rock etc. They wrote this music because they enjoyed it, it was exciting and they were bored to tears with what came before, they wanted something new and they went out and created it without any worries about how it or they would be perceived as musicians. They weren't trying to prove anything to anyone, least of all about their musical chops, they weren't showboating or grandstanding. It was a low-key underground culture similar in attitude to punk or thrash metal, at least back then.

You commented that you "paid your dues" regarding your musical proficiency, to me this implies that you perhaps see your musicianship as a key to some kind of reward or a place on some imagined podium. Not everybody sees musical proficiency like that, not everybody learns a skill so they can use it to hover disapprovingly over those they perceive as not up to their standards. Some people just do it for fun you know?

You don't understand it's reason for existing, that's ok, it would be akin to a European from a working class neighbourhood trying to understand the reason for the existence of bluegrass music. They just won't get it.

It doesn't fit with your world view of what music can be, so much so that you think it's "...a sign of end times". A person may be an accomplished musician and "paid their dues" according to some culturally dependant yardstick but that doesn't make them arbiter of what has value or not in the world of musicality. The majority of modern stuff is garbage I agree but don't throw the baby out with the bath water and there's no need to think EDM is the beginning of the end, really if we look back the whole mess started with American blues and Elvis quickly followed by the Beatles. As soon as the corporations got involved and created "Stars" out of musicians music was f**ked so blame that. The kids today are just playing with the carcass of that whole mess. "We didn't start the fire" by Bill Joel could very well be their anthem (with a 4/4 kick under it).

By the way, I was bicycle messenger for 4 years in my native Dublin, sorry to hear about your crash. I was lucky to survive without serious injury. I knew a couple of young guys who did the same on motorcycles who were killed delivering some pointless corporate package.
It was a thankless job then (mid-late 90's) and no doubt still is. All I took away from it was a severe dislike of taxi-drivers.

[Hink]

Mike, I'll swap vacations with you any day...I'll go to Aruba while you come stay at my place and visit relatives in Nashua

I'm actually tempted as it's been way too long since I was in Nashua. About 3 years now I think and only a flying visit last time.

actually it has to be closer to 4 years because we moved to this apartment 4 years ago July and I remember being at the last place when you came up (or at least the last time I knew you came up)...I remember seeing a plane (I even took a pic I think), a small one, flying up the river and you had said you were flying up to Nashua so I thought of you...next time you come up here we'll have to meet for at least a pizza or something

[robogone]

Mike, I'll swap vacations with you any day...I'll go to Aruba while you come stay at my place and visit relatives in Nashua

I'm actually tempted as it's been way too long since I was in Nashua. About 3 years now I think and only a flying visit last time.

actually it has to be closer to 4 years because we moved to this apartment 4 years ago July and I remember being at the last place when you came up (or at least the last time I knew you came up)...I remember seeing a plane (I even took a pic I think), a small one, flying up the river and you had said you were flying up to Nashua so I thought of you...next time you come up here we'll have to meet for at least a pizza or something

I could be 4 years. Audrey was under 2 as she was on my lap for the flight, so it could have been when she was really young. Actually I did get to Nashua for one day since then (about a year later) when we were in CT at my wife's uncle and aunts house and we drove to Nashua early one morning then went back later in the afternoon.

We'll definitely catch up next time I'm there and hopefully it will be for more than one day.

[jancivil]

....but most musics for me can be broken down into two lists; it is all about 'are the musicians doing their job right', yes/no, and a lot can be overlooked if they really are. This tarncey shite is not being done by musicians, it's just legoland in place of a world, so it for me is really unfortunate and a sign of end times.

I agree that today's EDM is a dead donkey. I stopped listening to tarnce back around 1999 when the Super DJ Cult took over and I hate the tired old cookie cutter formula as much as the next f**ker.

Your huge generalisation that "tarncey shite is not being done by musicians" may very well apply to a fair few of the latest off-the-shelf "producers" but if you think that all Trance/EDM period since the early 90's was done by the musically challenged then you're wrong and totally out-of-touch on the matter.

Well, look, I mentioned a specific 'kind' of thing and I described it. So you're largely talking at a straw man. I realize there are things that can place under the umbrella 'EDM' that are in fact made by musicians. The 'that' or was it 'this' in 'that (this) tarncey shite' does specific work in that sentence. So the generalization isn't mine. I am not in touch with the lifestyle, no. The things I don't like in Country or Metal are not a rejection of lifestyle, I can get into it based in the musical content, or not.

You don't understand it's reason for existing, that's ok, it would be akin to a European from a working class neighbourhood trying to understand the reason for the existence of bluegrass music. They just won't get it.

This does not a thing for me as an argument. If you have to understand lifestyle to get into a music, it must not objectively be all that compelling. So I will engage this for this reason, I am all about music qua music. I didn't have to come up in the naborhood to get funk, to appreciate it. At one time I didn't really, but the appreciation for it did not come out of me being steeped in the milieu. I think there are things in bluegrass that speak for itself musically, for instance. I have little referent as to the actual social functions of a Gamelan ensemble but I'm interested in as music. Etc.

It doesn't fit with your world view of what music can be, so much so that you think it's "...a sign of end times".

I think you might do better to refrain from telling me what I think. This appeal to a worldview reminds me of religious apologetics of the presuppositional stripe, attack the worldview and they feel they have gained a sort of higher ground. My idea of what music can be is not a 'worldview' like that, not at all. I said there is this "kind" of trance which does these specific things in order to be what it is. I think it's deficient by a completely objective criteria. Beyond this, really hard four-on-the-floor does make me physically ill-at-ease. The supersaw or whatever it is, in that hard quantized, plastic gesture and that hideous envelope? I have a physical issue with it, I don't want it in my life.

I said that thing, 'end times', kind of tongue-in-cheek, obviously over-the-top kind of thing. I think you know EXACTLY what I am talking about in music. We could now just realize we are not going to see eye-to-eye in some larger sense. However if you're going to pick this argument with me, I will address some things I find wanting.

A person may be an accomplished musician and "paid their dues" according to some culturally dependant yardstick but that doesn't make them arbiter of what has value or not in the world of musicality.

This is more of this presuppositional quality of rhetoric. What culture do I come from that makes this rather clear statement suspect? I paid some dues that some people will never do. I think that being better informed is what it is. Do you think someone that has worked with pigment and light for years knows no more about color than someone that has not done? But with music, somehow nothing is true.

I think someone that woodsheds all day long for years has paid dues that someone that never did should respect. I don't know why one would try to vacate it through rhetorical gesturing.
Where do you find this culture where being a total poseur is the thing to aspire to, rather than work hard towards a concrete result.
So the one tarnceroony had a little story to tell about the effete elitist conversative red wine drinker or whatever, and now this, 'culturally dependent dues paying'. Same quality.

I don't need to be your arbiter or anybody's. I stated my views on something I'm sure you understand.

The majority of modern stuff is garbage I agree but don't throw the baby out with the bath water and there's no need to think EDM is the beginning of the end, really if we look back the whole mess started with American blues and Elvis quickly followed by the Beatles. As soon as the corporations got involved and created "Stars" out of musicians music was f**ked so blame that. The kids today are just playing with the carcass of that whole mess. "We didn't start the fire" by Bill Joel could very well be their anthem (with a 4/4 kick under it).

Well. That's actually kind of amusing, thanks for that. So it's in the middle or near the end of the end.
But, I'm talking about a mechanical soulless thing that lazy people that would break a fingernail doing rock 'n roll poot forth. I find 'the kids today are just playing with that carcass' a sort of music journalism-fueled extramusical sort of remark, it's kind of on a level 'up here' floating above the thing itself. I think there is a similar problem in that sort of product but I think a person that has figured to make a certain kind of thing can be held responsible 'aesthetically' without resort to armchair musicology. The Beatles had to actually sing and play. I find that people that did not are lacking and I think this is self-evident. Maybe 'reality' is a worldview, and 'delusional' is the opposing worldview.

I do have a sort of historical process in mind even as my remark was facetious. Use it or lose it.

By the way, I was bicycle messenger for 4 years in my native Dublin, sorry to hear about your crash. I was lucky to survive without serious injury. I knew a couple of young guys who did the same on motorcycles who were killed delivering some pointless corporate package.
It was a thankless job then (mid-late 90's) and no doubt still is. All I took away from it was a severe dislike of taxi-drivers.

Thanks. I think it scarcely exists, is limited to doing court filings that need an actual signature and that may be to some extent out the window now. Taxi drivers were the enemy then but I try to consider that everyone is stressed and has their own cross to bear today. I was coming down a gigantic hill, that I felt some trepidation about, at great speed and someone pulled out of their driveway and evidently I went right into it (and over it, face-first into the street at that velocity). Hit-and-run, although I imagine the car showed signs of the collision. the front wheel of the bike was potato-chipped. I remember nothing. I had to get back to work with little recovery available to me because of a corrupt insurance thing, a bike messenger in SF could only get the 'doctor's first report' which provided for a path to worker's compensation from one individual and I didn't even know that.
My memory is foggy, but I definitely recall two other injuries that were debilitating and he signed off on me being totally able to work. I know that certainly the compensation was limited, I took a month off in Mexico and had to go to work, aggravating the injury every day and for some time. A couple of years later Jerry Jasculca got caught.

[Tony Ostinato]

once i was told that people love the music thats one skill level above them and hate the music thats 2 skill levels above them and up.

my personal one is if you don't like a style of music learn to play it, its worked for me every time.

thing is if you work alone you dont have to know fundamentals at all, but if you ever are going to work with others its good just for the sake of communication. trust me people get annoyed when you have to ask "what key are we in?" during a jam. im often tempted to give the wrong answer just so they stop asking.

i know i wouldnt want a self taught doctor, but thats a different ballgame. you arent gonna kill anyone with a wrong note, much, tho they may wanna kill you.

the music industry is built on myth and illusion. i remember a guitarist once who told me it would be impossible to write up the rolling stones music as notation because "the drummer changes up the beat too much".

[hibidy]

I'm not buying that. In fact, the music that I like is far above my skill level. I promise you if I was the motivated type, I could program a freaking "beat" (and do, with glee )

I admire guys who are good at doing whatever. I just don't think kanyay worst is talented. He was in the right business, at the right time for the wrong people. I also don't like justin boober. I don't envy anything about him other that his pocket book and the fact is I don't have the voice (he can sing great, he's not rebecca black ) But I hate that music.

What I usually don't like is what is really popular. There are exceptions. 30 seconds to mars for example. I generally like them even though they are formulated to the max.

[trimph1]

I do feel that it is mostly that once one 'hits' formula one sees 'The Nickelback Syndrome'.....

[Hink]

I do feel that it is mostly that once one 'hits' formula one sees 'The Nickelback Syndrome'.....

and? If that is what someone wants to do who cares? Some people would like to be Nickleback, I am sure many people here in fact wish they could be where Nickleback is. I do not see anyone forcing you to listen to any music ever so what difference does it make? Now we have an example of popular hate, I must hate them because everyone else does and I must be a follower and hate them too so I fit in...you know what? My wife likes Nickleback, a lot. You know what? I dont like Nickleback. You know what? I dont hate Nickleback. You know what? I love my wife. I'll listen to Nickleback many more times in my life but I wont complain because my wife is going to listen to music I like that she does not care for (for instance Uli Jon Roth). I might tease her like she teases me, but that's in a loving fun manner and after 17 years we can do such things without offending each other.

No good comes from hate, hate is toxic, hate is for weak people who cannot simply compromise, accept or move on...the Nickleback Syndrome? It's about jealousy, nothing else. It happens so often and not just here at KvR and not just Nickleback, but everywhere. I laugh here because people are so blatantly jealous it isn't even funny. They (Nickleback and other bands) have had commercial success and this seems to upset people and then comes the group hate...gotta hate them so I stay popular...so Jr High it. Hate is an extreme emotion and/or feeling, it destroys lives, communities and pretty much everything it touches.

I write my share of formula songs probably way too often for you or anyone else I'm sure and you know what? I dont care who likes it and who doesn't, I dont play for KvR, I dont play for money, I dont play for recognition, I play for me...it keeps me alive, it's my passion. I'm not trying to write some commercial super hit or even write something so radical it's a game changer nor am I ever going to make a living from my music...I just want to be able to enjoy my passion unfettered by small minds.

I dont care what anyone says, being Nickleback is a tough job, they work hard and worked hard to get to where they are at, They may not be my cup of tea but like I said yesterday instead of hate I try to gain understanding and appreciation and I can indeed appreciate the time they put into their careers to be where they are, I wont be buying their albums for me but I probably will for my wife and I will listen without being an ass ruining it for her.

As you can see, I think hate is a problem, I dont like hate, I dont like what hate does to me, I dont like what hate does to my family, I dont like what hate does to my friends, I dont like what hate does to my community, I dont like what hate does to my country, I dont like what hate does to the world...I'm not going to allow my passion for music to be tainted by hate...I'm not going to allow my passion to make me feel something I dont like or act in a manner that is not me...if I do hate wins and my passion loses which is not an option.

Nickleback was the perfect example Barry because my wife does like them so much and because they do represent things I dont care for in music (I think they are sexist egotists tbh). But they fill a need and as a result are popular which really has nothing to do with me, so I dont hate them.

I was never a radio guy, the radio never played the music I like but still I would be at work, in my car, with friends and the radio would be on. In an hour I would be lucky if I heard two sings I really liked, now I have a huge collection of music I like and dislike. I put on random play and if I am alone I skip the songs I dont care for and when I am with my wife I play the songs she likes even if I dont care for them because of a word called tolerance. But I am better off now than when I had less choices, that's all that matters. AT least I dont have to wait hours to hear songs I like anymore and that's good

I have an 18 year old daughter, she worshiped the Jonas Brothers...was I to discourage that? If she liked Beiber should I try and thwart that too? Over the years I have had to listen to songs over and over she says "dad listen to this? Aren't these guys great?"...what should I do? Tell an innocent teenager (and before she was a teenager for that matter) that she should hate them because I dont like them? Should I say. I'm sorry Lauren, the bands you like suck and you need to find better bands to like"? When she asks me how to play one of these songs should I say "no Lauren, I refuse to learn their songs to teach to you because I hate them?"

Of course the answer is no, love is far more important and I love my family. There is enough hate in the world and I will not invite hate into my house...if anyone has a problem with that I really do not care, it's not my problem and those people can stay out of my house too...I simply will not give my power away to something that creates hate, I wont allow anything to make me feel something I dont like or act in a way I do not care for...why would I? There is too much hate in the world and I wont let hate (or the ignorance that comes from hate) taint my refuge from such things...my passion that has lasted me my entire life...that passion is a gift and gives me so much pleasure.

IMHO and how I try to live my life hate is toxic...but that's just me
>>>>>>>YMMV<<<<<<<



edit: FTR I do not hate hate either, it's a necessary evil imo...without hate there cannot be love...but i will not embrace hate

[jancivil]

I do feel that it is mostly that once one 'hits' formula one sees 'The Nickelback Syndrome'.....

No good comes from hate, hate is toxic, hate is for weak people who cannot simply compromise, accept or move on...the Nickleback Syndrome? It's about jealousy, nothing else. It happens so often and not just here at KvR and not just Nickleback, but everywhere. I laugh here because people are so blatantly jealous it isn't even funny.

While you're prattling on like you're an exemplar of how to be, a moralistic tone which like I said sucks the air out of the room, you are doing this shit. We can't hate 'Nickelback' or it's nothing but jealousy. You actually have the gall to tell people what they think.
Really obnoxious. Every time, every single time someone has some music they don't respect, it's jealousy? That's so stupid and it's so bellicose. Jealous of what, exactly? Material success? Since you're telling everyone that has a problem with bad music what they think, fill us in here! And see if you can find a pair and address me. You take up a lot of space here but I can't block you, ya know. Unfair. I would like you to remove yourself as a moderator if you're going to constantly be on the prowl to find fault with people.

So you're a recovered hater. Thanks for sharing. And here's you telling us how right you are, and how wrong everyone that does something you don't approve of is, amidst all of this crap you poot forth, even was your signature for a long time, about how wrong it is to have to be right all of the time. One day, John, look in the mirror.

[jancivil]

I have an 18 year old daughter, she worshiped the Jonas Brothers...was I to discourage that? If she liked Beiber should I try and thwart that too?

Who said you did? You're going on and on about how wrong it is to 'hate', confusing the sense of what people mean by it to form it into what you want in order to make this great display of yourself. So I take 'oh, a recovered hater', like a recovered alcoholic, away from this.

You're going on and on, sticking to this modus operandi essentially to tell people how wrong they are to proceed differently than you. What it looks like is you would prefer to stifle discourse.

I think you should let young people find their own way and develop their own views. If I had children, I would take my father's example, he never straight up said 'this is crap' about the more childish things I had a passing interest in. OTOH he would not be abashed to call out a Kenny G, or something more close to home that offended his sensibilities. I think he wanted to find good things in what I was interested in. However the world is not my child. I don't expect to control what people think, and I think I can state an opinion and not be bashed for spreading hatred. That's pretty wild, John.

I want always to find good things in music. Sometimes I am disappointed. Sometimes there is nothing there, and sometimes it's a negating thing in society to me.
I don't have to fight a 'Nickelback', and I lack the power to take anything away from them. It's not a good example for me as I don't follow it. I take Kanye West as an arrogant, sub-mediocre guy, from encountering him on the 'net kind of too often. I'm not that focused on him, I don't troll youtube behind it. If I opine on it, his whole aspirational trip and all the effort he took to place himself where he is doesn't enter into it. I find an apologetics for Nickelback strange and misplaced. It's you being self-righteous and looking for another spot for that. He said 'the Nickelback syndrome', which probably means repeating the same bit having found success by it, rather than be more interested in the music. But no, you can't have that. I don't think you're invested in Nickelback, just in your argument. And you had no use for thinking about what Barry actually said! So tedious.

So you're telling people what to think, essentially. {And creating a story about what people think: "People are upset by their success." What people? Don't tell us what we are thinking.} I think no one is very moved by this.
This is discourse that I find of interest. You're trying to overwhelm it by this one thing, and how many times will you fight to be right with the same thing?
I would love to block your ass but I can't, so I will reiterate: you really suck the oxygen out of a room with your crap.

[Sendy]

I think hating certain types of art is fine, provided you don't stop others enjoying it, and you have fun with it rather than letting it fill you up.

The hate I feel when I think about the phrase "music you hate" is the kind of hate borne from passion. When I listen to that Showtek-style EDM that I love to rant on about, it honestly makes me feel queasy. It's grody, like a rotting carcass to me. It's like someone killed music and is making it's corpse dance. This goes beyond "I don't like it" or "not my thing".

You could effectively torture me with that stuff. I'd tell you anything you wanted to hear just to increase my chances of getting away from it by 0.1%. I hate it because it's getting more and more popular, and it feels to me more about fasion than any love of sound or music. The culture that comes with it spreads disinformation about music and casualizes the process of creation, turning it into something like playing Angry Birds.

I can imagine someone who likes this style of EDM reading my posts and either thinking "what a jerk, they just don't get it!" or possibly taking a step back and realizing that they're only liking this stuff due to peer pressure. Especially when you're young, that can be a huge factor, and you can be quite closed minded without realising it. (Speaking from experience, of course).

Worst case scenario: Someone thinks I'm a jerk. Best case scenario: They think about the big picture in music, and this either reaffirms their love of Showtek, or causes them to cast their net wider. Either way it's a win.

If you have a viewpoint that's right for you, no amount of other people naysaying it will steer you from your path. If they do, it just wasn't right for you. That's my experience, anyway. No amount of people telling me my music sounds like a drumkit falling down the stairs has stopped me from making music that sounds, to some people, like a drumkit falling down the stairs

All that said, over time, the ratio to what I enjoy to what I don't in music has only ever expanded in favour of the liking. I think as you get older you start to see more of what you like in the things that you previously didn't like. You become less of a snob and more open-minded. But it's good to be not so open-minded that you value everything, because that robs your world of meaning.

[jancivil]

Showtek, right, I don't remember names at all well, but you showed that the other day.
THAT is a perfect example of what I said I hate. That would make me sick if I was forced to be there. It makes me feel like doing violence. There is something horrible going on there.

If we follow Hink, we can't even hate Hitler, I guess. "Hate is weakness." Yeah, I think we hated our way to victory some, though. I'm not actually all that focused on music I hate or in battle particularly, though. There is nothing to this story 'Your hate is you being weak and uncompromising and you won't move on', you can stuff that. I'm not trolling youtube behind it, like you're trolling us on this thread.

Who will I be compromising for, though? I look for good things in music, if I don't find them I move on.
But you're saying this to shut down someone even stating their view. I agree with Sendy about the negating aspects of that whole thing. If I have the power to stop someone's enjoyment, their enjoyment was too fragile and based in something outside the thing itself.

I think talking about ideas is good discourse. I think there are bad ideas. I think this /accept all things/ means what Sendy said, you've vacated meaning for yourself.

[Sendy]

Yeah, that was Showtek. I'd never heard of them until I saw that clip, but the name just got seared into my amygdala.

[jancivil]

I'll remember it now, probably. the horror. the horror.

I just recalled my father expressing a kind of disgust with "Honky Tonk Woman" on the car radio, which I liked. He took it as country music which he must have hated.
So I had to turn that down.

Country music was fairly prevalent where I'm from. I got my mother a Glenn Campbell album because she liked 'Gentle on My Mind'. It wasn't about a type of music, that record chilled her out, she liked what it said. My father didn't like that record as I recall. Jazz people vs Hillbillies. Which we had actually no experience with whatsoever. Once we took a trip up into the mountains and there was a native display selling geegaws we stopped to gawk at, and the boy attending it was incomprehensible, speaking a strange dialect.

When I was around 30 I formed a country band. Well, we did other things, but part of it was playing it straight. It was performance art, in a sense. But I took Hank Williams seriously and learned about pedal steel from an authentic guy in it. We had a fantastic version of Wichita Lineman.
I don't dwell in that as a way of life but there are some great musicians doing it, and that's what it's about.

[trimph1]

Geeesh....I only mentioned the idea of a formula that gets followed ...

Honestly...look what happens every time a band stretches its collective wings...what do you hear from fans?! Sell out!!! What ?????