KVR Audio

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:12 pm

Less mentioned, but 6 masterpieces (and one of Gould's best recordings, in my opinion)..
The Toccatas for keyboard. Completely hypnotising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNjNuQJG9xY

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Sampleconstruct wrote:While the experts argue I can only say, that I would never have played "Das Wohltemperierte Klavier" on a harpsichord because I simply hate it's typewriterish sound and can't listen to it more than 2 minutes, whereas playing this beautiful and wondrous music on a piano during my adolescence opened so many doors and created an invaluable knowledge and intuition for harmonies and counterpoint.

As I said, I have nothing against playing those on the piano, as I did myself. And completely agree on the part that it opens many doors and create invaluable knowledge and intuition on harmony and counterpoint. That's why Bach is still in the piano curricula everywhere, and is still played everywhere. One thing is personal preferences, another thing is saying that the piano is better because of this or that.

Even in this thread, some of the arguments used in favour of the piano are exactly the wrong ones, and as I said, Gould himself played Bach on the piano with a technique especially adapted for that. That's what I was trying to point.

Don't agree on the "typewriterish" sound though, and frankly, I wasn't expecting that kind of prejudice from you.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:37 pm

2ZrgE wrote:Who cares in which way Bach is "interpreted right" as long as the interpretation sounds good to my ears? And a piano sounds much better than a harpsichord. (I'm sure Bach would have preferred the piano as well.)

Of course the guardians of the pure Bach religion will instantly prove to you that your way of listening is wrong and cannot be pleasing at all... Or that you just have not the intellectual capability to realize the divine subtleties of his work (wich you ony can appreciate after having listened to thousands of records / having a PhD in musicology...)

(I mostly prefer Gould when it comes to Bachs keyboard works, but not all of his ridiculous tempi and definitively not his mumbling....)

The troll in service presents for duty

And I'm sure you cannot be sure about what Bach would prefer, nor is that important. Regarding the intellectual capabilities, I can only speak for myself, since I don't know you, but the sample is not promising.

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:37 pm

fmr wrote:
Sampleconstruct wrote:While the experts argue I can only say, that I would never have played "Das Wohltemperierte Klavier" on a harpsichord because I simply hate it's typewriterish sound and can't listen to it more than 2 minutes, whereas playing this beautiful and wondrous music on a piano during my adolescence opened so many doors and created an invaluable knowledge and intuition for harmonies and counterpoint.
As I said, I have nothing against playing those on the piano, as I did myself. And completely agree on the part that it opens many doors and create invaluable knowledge and intuition on harmony and counterpoint. That's why Bach is still in the piano curricula everywhere, and is still played everywhere. One thing is personal preferences, another thing is saying that the piano is better because of this or that.

Even in this thread, some of the arguments used in favour of the piano are exactly the wrong ones, and as I said, Gould himself played Bach on the piano with a technique especially adapted for that. That's what I was trying to point.

Don't agree on the "typewriterish" sound though, and frankly, I wasn't expecting that kind of prejudice from you.

It's true that Gould was trying to change the attack of his piano and the responsiveness to be closer to the feel of a harpsichord. But I listen to Tureck, Perahia, Richter, Zhu Xiao Mei, Hewitt, etc. probably even more than I listen to Gould. Apart from Tureck, who made it clear that she approached Bach completely differently technically than any other composer, I doubt any of them changed their technique more than is required to play Bach in the first place. I seriously doubt any of them changed their technique to imitate playing a harpsichord. Yet, they rise above Gould on occasions with their piano technique.

And what you consider wrong arguments for the piano is very much a subjective matter, it seems.

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:50 pm

Obviously -and this word is going to come back often- whether you prefer the harpsichord or the piano is a subjective matter.

But compare the C# minor Prelude and Fugue of Book 1 of the Well-Tempered,
first on harpsichord

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOog0239N8A

then on piano

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugSXVymv6b8

For me, the piano stands above it head and shoulders.
And that's not even the best performance.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:51 pm

spaceman wrote:It's true that Gould was trying to change the attack of his piano and the responsiveness to be closer to the feel of a harpsichord. But I listen to Tureck, Perahia, Richter, Zhu Xiao Mei, Hewitt, etc. probably even more than I listen to Gould. Apart from Tureck, who made it clear that she approached Bach completely differently technically than any other composer, I doubt any of them changed their technique more than is required to play Bach in the first place. I seriously doubt any of them changed their technique to imitate playing a harpsichord. Yet, they rise above Gould on occasions with their piano technique.

And what you consider wrong arguments for the piano is very much a subjective matter, it seems.

Tureck was a Bach specialist, and she strongly influenced Gould. Gould himself dedicated much of his work to Bach. Although on the piano, their approach is more consistent to me. The same goes to Schiff, who curiously, besides me nobody mentioned.

All the others just played Bach as just another composer, and none of them has any Bach recording that can be considered memorable, IMO. Regarding the subjectiveness of my arguments regarding the piano, isn't all this subjective? The way we listen to music, and the way music touches us has much to do with our cultural and musical background, and what is divine to some is just "meh" to others. I am just bringing my POV to the discussion, on a subject that is very endearing to me, not pretending to have some kind of absolute true.

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:58 pm

fmr wrote:
spaceman wrote:It's true that Gould was trying to change the attack of his piano and the responsiveness to be closer to the feel of a harpsichord. But I listen to Tureck, Perahia, Richter, Zhu Xiao Mei, Hewitt, etc. probably even more than I listen to Gould. Apart from Tureck, who made it clear that she approached Bach completely differently technically than any other composer, I doubt any of them changed their technique more than is required to play Bach in the first place. I seriously doubt any of them changed their technique to imitate playing a harpsichord. Yet, they rise above Gould on occasions with their piano technique.

And what you consider wrong arguments for the piano is very much a subjective matter, it seems.
Tureck was a Bach specialist, and she strongly influenced Gould. Gould himself dedicated much of his work to Bach. Although on the piano, their approach is more consistent to me. The same goes to Schiff, who curiously, besides me nobody mentioned.

I don't think Hewitt would agree with that statement, to just name one

Regarding the subjectiveness of my arguments regarding the piano, isn't all this subjective? The way we listen to music, and the way music touches us has much to do with our cultural and musical background, and what is divine to some is just "meh" to others. I am just bringing my POV to the discussion, on a subject that is very endearing to me, not pretending to have some kind of absolute true.

Absolutely. There's no arguing personal preferences.

Btw, I like Schiff, but there's often something about his phrasing that bothers me. I can't put my finger on it (not in his Goldberg though.. super recording that is)

2ZrgE · Post by **2ZrgE** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:03 pm

fmr wrote: The troll in service presents for duty

And I'm sure you cannot be sure about what Bach would prefer, nor is that important. Regarding the intellectual capabilities, I can only speak for myself, since I don't know you, but the sample is not promising.

Well if that's the level of argumentation you can offer than no further discussion is needed from my position.

To put it mildly, you seem like one those guys who read as much about music as they listen to, and then reproduce what they read with snobby academic rhetorics (or did you come up with your remarks about historically informed performance by yourself?)

Maybe you should consider getting a job as a critic?

At least I'm able to play some Bach on the piano, which is funnier than discussing it.

Sampleconstruct · Post by **Sampleconstruct** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:07 pm

fmr wrote:

Don't agree on the "typewriterish" sound though, and frankly, I wasn't expecting that kind of prejudice from you.

Come on, why on earth should I be "pre-judiced" against the sound of an instrument. My verdict is based on post-judice, personal suffering, being also a keyboarder I played everything on this planet which comes with keys, also the harpsichord and the celesta while doing some gigs in chamber ensembles in my twens, so I know what this thing sounds like and what it's limitations are by playing it.

The good and bad thing when a composer dies and he/she and eventually his/her heirs lose control over the ouvre/work is, that the music is set free, it can be modified, adapted, destroyed, ridiculed, interpreted and whatnot. This can lead to bizarre things like Beethoven's ninth ending up as a technoid ringtone on a taiwanese cellphone or a bizarre pianist like Gould interpreting Bach's music the way he does. It also leads to synthesizer orgies like Switch on Bach which I am not so fond of.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:10 pm

2ZrgE wrote: To put it mildly, you seem like one those guys who read as much about music as they listen to, and then reproduce what they read with snobby academic rhetorics (or did you come up with your remarks about historically informed performance by yourself?)

No, I didn't come up with anything all by myself, since I wasn't born knowledgeable, therefore, I had to acquire every knowledge I have, and I am still learning. And yes, besides listening and playing, I also read and study a lot about music, which seems not to be the case with you.

Have all the fun you can playing Bach. That's what matters, anyway

Sampleconstruct · Post by **Sampleconstruct** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:14 pm

I think the OP is now totally intimidated by all of this and simply ran away, I hope she still gets a chance to encounter some Bach without all the words and knowledge.