Ok straight up Poll... Ik White VS Native instruments VCA2A

[HcDoom]

Ok and what about proper input/output stages? Can we expect that or not?

[Suspended In Dusk]

Thanks for chiming in, Peter.

My biggest issue with the Black 76 (and I've spent an hour after last night's session messing with it again, because I had this discussion in the back of my head) is easily illustrated using extreme settings for the attack and release parameters. Which is all the more obvious when you really push the compression, as in, all buttons in.

In theory, the maximum release for 1176's would usually be 1200ms (or 1100 ms or in that ball park).

Using the Waves model (CLA-76), even in all buttons in mode, or even Logic's compressor in FET mode w/ maximaum ratio (30:1) I can still sculpt the sound. If I use the longest possible release and relatively short attack on acoustic drums, the result will be as I expect. Once the initial portion of the signal passes through, the compression will kick in and minimize the decay and the room sound and, most likely, the room sound won't have time to crawl back in before the next hit.

Something like:

HITcompressed decay HIT

But using the Black-76, even with the input turned all the way up, no matter how long the release, invariably, I get:

HitDECAYYYY

So for all purpose, it's as if I were not getting anywhere near sufficient gain reduction, and, as a result, there's very little difference in loudness between the transient and the decay/room sound - because, well, the input has been pushed all the way up, effectively boosting the decay too.

So there's a whole world of possibilities left out. There's so little gain reduction going on that you can't really achieve something like this by messing w/ the attack and release:

LOUDEST-softest-soft-louder-LOUDEST

It just seems impossible to achieve with the Black-76. At extreme settings, I only get exaggerated decay, and there's just no way to retain - much less create - "punch".

[BERFAB]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but FWIW, back when the NI compressors came out in GR mode, ComputerMag did a side by side IIRC. If memory serves, I think IK came out on top on that one. Can't recall the issue, but I'm sure someone with archive access can locate it.

I don't own the IK black/white models, but I've got all their other stuff and really like the Opto (vocals esp. on that one) and other comps. But I've been using the new NI stuff this week and really like them as well.

Cheers
-B

[hibidy]

[hibidy]

So does anyone just think "yeah, they both have good points?"

Yes ..but I would surely choose the NI one.

let's make a simple sandwich, shall we?

...and it's synthmaker (or is it synthedit, whatever)

.....................u n r e a s o n a b l e ..............................

but I have my reasons for not using them.

So I imagined all the posts I've seen through they years with people who have had much trouble using SE/SM plugs?

[bmanic]

And back to the real units (and to veer into the 1176 debate a little bit - sorry), aside from what you'll see in that shootout about the comparison - a note made by a developer is poignant too: "You will be surprised HOW LITTLE an 1176 distorts when it's not compressing"

This is not strictly true. It's not about "distortion that you hear as distortion" but rather how the transients are affected, or "slewed" by the transformer, at least in the E revision. I've compared side by side the E revision, the H revision (no transformer.. also called the "silver face" due to the silver front plate) and then a few weeks later the famous, rare A revision, the one with the blue paint (which sounds quite a bit different to the other two).

The transformer smooths out the incoming and outgoing stuff, no matter what the compression setting is. It also reacts differently depending on how hard you actually drive stuff into it. You can hit it pretty hard and still get a nice gooey sound out of the unit. This is especially common on bass guitar in classic rock tracks. You can really force the thing to "sit steady" by driving the signal into the compressor.

I really hope you update the plugins at some point because the compression action seems fine in your plugins but it's definitely lacking something and my guess is it's all the transient smearing of the various components in the signal path.

Now the LA2A is even more critical because that's a very sweet sounding tube unit. I was pretty disappointed to find that you didn't even try to model the tube in it and only discussed how vital the opto side chain path was. Well of course it is important but the tube is exactly the other half of the sound of an LA2A!

Cheers!
bManic

[AudioGuy720]

I really hope you update the plugins at some point because the compression action seems fine in your plugins but it's definitely lacking something and my guess is it's all the transient smearing of the various components in the signal path.

Now the LA2A is even more critical because that's a very sweet sounding tube unit. I was pretty disappointed to find that you didn't even try to model the tube in it and only discussed how vital the opto side chain path was. Well of course it is important but the tube is exactly the other half of the sound of an LA2A!

Cheers!
bManic

Agreed. ESPECIALLY on the LA-2A's tube being essential to its sound. Although I like the 76 and White there's definitely something missing from them that the Waves plugins have.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

This is interesting!!!

I finally gave the NI's a good thrash and TBH they are WONDERFUL...

softube have totally nailed each and every one of these.. even the transient designer..

those who are willing to spend $60 at the intro price are in for a treat for the TD and even at normal price it's half the price of the (also excellent) spl plug in alliance once.

Anyway onto the LA2A... on a variety of sources (guitar, vocal and even drums), i like the IK one just as much.

EVen though it's missing the parallel compression and external sidechain and "mojo", i like the way it sounds, alot.

THe point is that i can save myself having another plug in vendor in my already cluttered list as i already use IK stuff and don't have any NI fx at present

so yes i know it might seem like a real OCD reason to go with the IK, but with my jampoints it works out to just $10 more than the NI, and i save myself that line in the list (screen realestate is everything on a laptop).

Plus the temptation then goes away to get the rest of the Ni's.

TBH i thought the 1176 was the best i have ever heard to this day though.. (the current NI one) so who knows dammit, maybe i should just get the NI.

and we all know NI doesn't do group buys and 50% is it. This is the cheapest it will be, if they do a sale again it will be for the same as it is now.

I am scared if i buy the IK there will be a sale around the corner.. that said from memory people got the black AND the white AND the full t-racks deluxe for $99 in their huge group buy right? that is just insane.

The only Ik stuff i actually don't have is fender (and various amptitube store bits and bobs), and the black and white.. i have the rest of their stuff, so the most obvious sale i'd love to see is on the black and white.

Anyway, the LA2a is so sweet it doesn't suffer from lack of a mix control and i can't see why i'd use it to sidechain, there are many other's i'd choose first for that purpose.

Ok yes as usual i can't make up my mind.

does anyone know if i buy the NI's if the demo i have installed can be activated? that would be kind of cool. With the Ik's it can't from what i know.

Either way, finally my LA2A desire will be fulfilled.

[Aiynzahev]

If it were me I'd go NI as the 1176 is excellent and there aren't many dbx 160's around native. Though I can see your dilemma because IK white is also very nice.

I was playing about with the NI la2a on synths yesterday and was really liking the smooth compression, normally I'd use something fast but I realised the advantage of putting something like tha LA2A on synths (especially post-fx) as you can really get them loud wile controlling their volume and lengthening the reverb tails.

I also found the 1176 to excel in this mode (with a long release) and tried the same with the Vertigo. The Vertigo doesn't do this as well, although it does things these other three don't.

I don't see any overlap in short.

[sonicpowa]

-- and there aren't many dbx 160's around native.

I hope SKnote's version will be good because NI VC160 is not so good, it doesn't have the punch that DBX is known for.
Edit: ah it's already out http://www.sknote.it/C165a.htm
Edit2: yep, it's better than VC160.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

At first I thought Theo decided on ours, but not so sure now... I hope so, though, as we do stand behind both the White 2A and the Black 76 and I don't think I stressed enough some reasons:

- Our models sound nearly indistinguishable from the ORIGINAL units and that the models should be compared to originals and not to other plugins, for the most realistic comparison.
- Compared to the original hardware, others may be distorting much more and sometimes perception and reality are a bit different as we found that for example the 1176 most of the THD is generated by the attenuation FET that is distorting the incoming signal when this gets of a comparable magnitude with the FET thresholds. We wanted to be more similar to the original units (of course) regardless of what extra "coloration" may be added by others (as we'd stand on our own against the real units and still do).
- From our tests it was more important to SOUND like the original hardware than to add harmonics that were not there in our maniacal measuring and testing with the real units, and we preferred to go this way because the models sounded nearly identical to originals this way, and without excessive (meaning not there in the hardware unit) distortion.
- You can hear in the processed material from the original units and our plug-ins (via the Slate shootout) and I could have Brian work with our development team to send get similar from the unit we modeled and our plugins for a blind listening test if people are interested in that.
- In our opinion, distorting way too much vs the real unit is contrary to how the real units distort so we respect how others may do it but we don't want to provide something of an extra overdrive unit to you, we want to provide something that SOUNDS REALLY GOOD and we feel we provided that.

Again, if interested we can have some sound files generated. With the upcoming updates and new gear, I hope it can come as quickly as you may or may not like (might not generate any interest, I've seen it go either way with blind comparisons) but we'll see what we can do.

[antithesist]

Which rev. of the original hardware are you going on about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1176_Peak_Limiter

Beyond that, even different units of the same rev. can sound quite a bit different. I have the not so respected 1178, but by luck of the draw, I have a really good one. Maybe you guys accidentally modeled a crappy one.

Also, note about Class A on some revs in addition to the transformer differences bmaniac mentioned.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

Which rev. of the original hardware are you going on about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1176_Peak_Limiter

Beyond that, even different units of the same rev. can sound quite a bit different. I have the not so respected 1178, but by luck of the draw, I have a really good one. Maybe you guys accidentally modeled a crappy one.

Also, note about Class A on some revs in addition to the transformer differences bmaniac mentioned.

It is a fine unit, again we have people more qualified in studio hardware than you'd imagine who know about what units are good and we wouldn't model a bad one. Rev E, hand picked by someone trusted as an expert hardware guy by many pro studios... I don't think it is the unit or modeling that's 'crappy' ... There are many in this thread and the 1176 thread who love the sound. And again we see Steven Slate compare against one we didn't use with positive results, and offer blind tests.

[antithesist]

Well, I don't have to imagine, I am one. Not everyone here is a hobbyist. I know plenty of other pros, all the way up the rest of the food chain from me, that I won't insult you by saying you couldn't imagine them. I think you could, actually. Also, I'm sorry if I insulted your unit (TWSS, heh, he said unit, heh, heh).

It's Rev. E then, but without modeling the Class A circuitry or transformers, because those attributes are so subtle in comparison to the FET distortion. That explains it having more in common with my non-crappy 1178, which is sort of a G or H, than other hardware and software models I've worked with over the years.

Don't get me wrong, I like the IK Black and White. They're worth every penny I paid for them. Oh, wait. They were free.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

-- and there aren't many dbx 160's around native.

I hope SKnote's version will be good because NI VC160 is not so good, it doesn't have the punch that DBX is known for.
Edit: ah it's already out http://www.sknote.it/C165a.htm
Edit2: yep, it's better than VC160.

I agree. Disappointed in the VC160