why not analog-style limiters?

[DuX]

Vlad for president! I don't mean it sarcastically, of course.

Speaking of 6LIM, I found it rather usable for a slight glueing on the busses - just give it a little gain on the input [I usually find 1-4dB enough, sometimes no gain at all] in it's default state, or lower the threshold just 1-4dB [depending on what you're after] and decrease the output with a fader since I mix at -18dB RMS levels. It's an odd thingie. Reminds me of those LA and Urei thingies, kinda. It doesn't slam things completely, and that's why I like it. Better to use 6Lim for busses than brickwalls, that's for sure, in my book anyway... Having said that, sometimes I find the brickwall on it useful, too, but brickwall tends to kill too much transients and therefore highs, too, for me. I'm not fond of that "modern", muffled and blurred sound at all.

Vlad, what are the attack/release characteristics on this 6Lim? Imagine having a release control on it, or even better - a time constant control with like 6 options... familiar? This could be a really interesting leveling amplifier...

[Halma]

@midnight, there are no analog brickwall or look ahead peak limiters. No analog phase linear limiters either.

Really Brian? Really?

Really?

Really?

http://www.pendulumaudio.com/PL2.html
http://vintageking.com/maselec-mpl-2
http://www.aphex.com/aphex-products/720722-dominator/
http://www.cranesong.com/products/stc8/index.html

wow-these are exactly what Im looking for-but in VST form

I only wish that Brian IK or other devs can finally get what are we missing in VST world...

Btw just wanna add that the Classic Multiband Limiter more or less looks like a pretty solid 1:1 "inspiration" of the Aphex Dominator concept. Can´t say if 700, 720 or some other model. I don´t know the HW unit.

I have done a lot of research the last days because I never got the hang of the Classic Multiband Limiter from the T-Racks suite. The manual is pretty short and does not help that much. In fact some of parameters are also a little bit misleading IF someone compares them to the Dominator manuals.

So why the Dominator manuals if you wanna understand this unit? Because all other Multiband Limiting tutorials, manuals (even from different devs) does not help that much here. And it is funny that (aside from different release timings and maybe some minor other things) this one makes totally sense after you have read them. I can`t go into detail right now because I am trying out stuff on my own but if you could see me right now you would see a pretty big smile on my face. Put this on your drumbus, dial up drive, adjust x-overs, dial overload thingy fully right and adjust release timings. Now play around with those three knobs only: drive, release and overload...

I tried to find some other info about Aphex Dominator models and usage but there is not that much of it around. Some threads on gearslutz, one or two sos articles, that´s it.

Anyway, just wanted to add that there already is some kind of "heavily inspired by" Aphex Dominator VST around if you are still looking for one. I hope at least some people of the IKM staff know some of their own models.

Regards
Sebastian

[kvaca]

Anyway, just wanted to add that there already is some kind of "heavily inspired by" Aphex Dominator VST around if you are still looking for one.

nice - brilliant investigation from you Halma and it seems correct
the only thing I would like to know is...does this plugin also emulate probably the most important part of Dominator which is ALT /automatic thresholds/
also...there is no mention about latency of plugin and it seems to me that its not zero latency like hardware...

I hope at least some people of the IKM staff know some of their own models..

very true...maybe only people from IKM can shed a light on this if they finally became familiar with their own products...

[DuX]

Try this... http://electric-snow.net/plugins.html

Cheers!

[Halma]

...does this plugin also emulate probably the most important part of Dominator which is ALT /automatic thresholds/
also...there is no mention about latency of plugin and it seems to me that its not zero latency like hardware... ...

Tbh I have no clue how accurate the ALT thingy has been emulated but no matter what they did they did it very good. As far as I understood the whole thing is that ALT is some kind of automatic threshold detection in the sum of all three bands which maintains an even overall output and gives you a more balanced overall signal due altering the single thresholds in the earlier multiband stage based on the signal in the sum.

This unit really gave me a headache. That´s why I started to find out how to use it and it works completely different than any other multiband thingy I have worked with. And I also build lots of multiband devices inside Reason manually for years.

I like this one because it works pretty logcial and straight forward. You wanna have something louder? Then dial up drive. Done! It´s like using a wideband limiter but with the power of a multiband one. And without thinking too much about thresholds and single band treatment. It reminds me more on a "one knob solution" with some knobs more. By far the easiest multiband limiter I have worked with

I am just scratching the surface of it. Right now I am investigating the different sound possibilities while using different x-over points. And playing around with different EQ and Threshold settings too.

I mean this one can become brutally loud with lots of power and without sounding unnatural. And with the overload knob and release timing parameters you have an unbelievable control over the Peak to RMS ratio.

Pretty amazing.

I used it only on my drum bus. Not on my master. And though the manual states that a 0dB output setting should peak at 0.05 dB maximum I encountered some clippings after that (maybe ISP) and that´s why I have an additional instance of the Brickwall Limiter in clean mode in the end of the chain. Just for safety. But with this combo you can crank up drive pretty dang high.

And regarding to latency: i doubt it has zero latency. Could check how much PDC this one reports.

Regards
Sebastian

[kvaca]

Try this... http://electric-snow.net/plugins.html

Cheers!

hmmm - pretty nice sound for a free plugin...it looks and behave like a pro one!!!
I have to test it deeper but it seems fit all my criteria and moreover without the need for any multiband or lookahead tricks
if I understand it correctly its only compressor morphed with soft clipper in some new way...and its easy to use and hard to set it sound bad, almost idiotproof ...only when used mainly as clipper /hard knee,max ratio and max shaping/ it starts to distort awfully...
so far it seems for drums I like it best when set at medium knee maximum ratio and medium shaping and with fast attack and release...and with this setting it still can handle 20 db of gain reduction without sounding like a shit and sametime without pumping like a typical brickwall limiter...

[DuX]

I knew it you would like it. It's just so simple to get it to sound right. The pre-emphasis EQ is also very useful and quite an original idea. It's really great for quick buss compression job. The other JS compressor is also rather good. Yeah, especially for freeware! This was one of my go-to compressors before Molot came around, however, this one is still rather useful as Molot is somewhat harder to set up.

[camsr]

Incredible unit, just tryed it briefly and I am VERY impressed.
Somewhat dirty in the output, but the compressor is marvelous.
Tough to call it a limiter, but maybe that's a good thing

[kvaca]

The pre-emphasis EQ is also very useful and quite an original idea.

do you know how does it differ from 3 band sidechain EQ found in many compressor plugins /Kjaerhus GoldenClassic compressor comes first into my mind.../

[DuX]

I don't remember how the Kjaerhus compressor works, but I suppose this is pretty much the same. It's called pre-emphasis EQ but it works just like a sidechain EQ in the detector path so you can't hear it. In any case, it's quite a versatile compressor. You can do really nice parallel compression with it since it's got a mix knob, too. It can be very subtle if you want, but it can squash the shit out of audio, too, mostly depending on the shaper and knee. It actually isn't so dirty... but yes it is coloured/saturateed. Oversampling also helps to keep it nicely clean from aliasing. All the dirtyness comes from slight saturation with even harmonics and shaper which boost those harmonics even further.

[kvaca]

I don't remember how the Kjaerhus compressor works, but I suppose this is pretty much the same. It's called pre-emphasis EQ but it works just like a sidechain EQ in the detector path so you can't hear it. In any case, it's quite a versatile compressor. You can do really nice parallel compression with it since it's got a mix knob, too. It can be very subtle if you want, but it can squash the shit out of audio, too, mostly depending on the shaper and knee. It actually isn't so dirty... but yes it is coloured/saturateed. Oversampling also helps to keep it nicely clean from aliasing. All the dirtyness comes from slight saturation with even harmonics and shaper which boost those harmonics even further.

thanks for your now corrected answer ... your first reaction confused me so much that I wasnt able to tell anything without looking at analyzer to assure myself that Im still hearing sounds correctly ... because this so-called preemphasis EQ sounded to me very similar to Kjaerhus GCO sidechain EQ as I remembered it from the past /sadly I dont have that plugin installed anymore so I cannot compare them now.../
so well, now your answer is most of the time in harmony with sounds Im hearing

btw - only slight correction: analyzer shows that there are no even harmonics produced...only odd...

[bmanic]

You can do pre-emhpasis tricks with any symmetrical EQ. I've given quite a few examples over the years. What you do is simply boost or cut before the processor of choice. Then do the exact opposite after the processor. The two EQs will basically cancel each other out (it's not quite that simple but it'll have to do as an explanation).

It's a great way to "steer" the compressor into the frequency range you need it to operate at, in case the compressor doesn't support an external side chain. It's also a very effective trick for saturation plugins, to emphasize the frequency area that you want to dominate the process.. thus resulting in different harmonic content.

Cheers!
bManic

[Agreed]

Personally I really don't like the analog attempt at a lookahead sound... Even Behringer put out a unit aimed at it and I thought that was only ~okay on kicks, the whole concept of lookahead in the analog world requires a lot of added latency and is just a biiiiit weird to try. You can tell that the idea was a good one before it became really, TRULY possible with digital limiting.

Which isn't to say that there aren't perfectly good leveling amplifiers, you know? The Fairchild 670, for example, holy moly was it an amazing piece of technology, way ahead of its time in my opinion.

I dunno. This is not something that I personally want to see revisited in modeled form. It seems like a strange contradiction, actually. I don't know. Everyone's entitled to their own thoughts on it of course!

[Agreed]

You can do pre-emhpasis tricks with any symmetrical EQ. I've given quite a few examples over the years. What you do is simply boost or cut before the processor of choice. Then do the exact opposite after the processor. The two EQs will basically cancel each other out (it's not quite that simple but it'll have to do as an explanation).

It's a great way to "steer" the compressor into the frequency range you need it to operate at, in case the compressor doesn't support an external side chain. It's also a very effective trick for saturation plugins, to emphasize the frequency area that you want to dominate the process.. thus resulting in different harmonic content.

Cheers!
bManic

This is such a useful tool that it's even made its way into general guitarist vocabulary as "the mesa trick" thanks to the ability to cut bass before clipping and boost it after clipping, which keeps the low end cleaner and tighter while doing the compression and distortion thing primarily to the midrange and treble - very good sound. But, yeah, this is a vastly important part of gain staging for any sort of tool, you give it what you want it to work with, and is as close as single-band tools can get to the flexibility of an explicitly multi-band version of the same kind of tool.

[bmanic]

.. which begs the question. Who's going to be the first to create a proper ITB floating point gain staging volume + symmetrical EQ tool?

A plugin which consists of two instances. One instance before the processing chain and the second instance after the processing chain.

Lets say you cut the volume on the first instance by -6dB, the second instance at the end of the chain, would then boost by +6dB. Lets say you boost at around 200Hz to emphasize the "mud" into a saturation plugin, the second instance at the end would then cut with a symmetrical eq at 200Hz to completely cancel out the boost that you did.

This kinds of tools would be extremely handy provided that it all worked at high resolution (32 or 64bit floating point) in a DAW that is running floating point mixbus (basically all of them now, right? Even PT! ).

Cheers!
bManic