Fabien, I'm not putting anything on the "golden scale" here, and neither do you. I just try to understand what is going on here. And to be honest, you really lost me by now. At least with certain technical aspects.
Oh the one hand, you say that OS is not involved. On the other hand, Vlad mention that it is - but it OS's the bit depth(?, Samplingtiefe).
Again, to my understanding, OS is basically for the SRC (Sampling Rate). It makes more sense to have a higher SRC due to OS, because (I quote Wikipedia here): "it improves resolution, reduces noise and helps avoid aliasing and phase distortion by relaxing anti-aliasing filter performance requirements". With the benefit of having better filters (EQ). Especially if this plugin goes higher than in terms of the high shelf.
A higher bit depth does indeed have a better/finer resolution. Especially in terms of low frequency (due to "more steps" being reproduced) and higher dynamic ranges, you're also pretty much save from clipping beyond 32bit float.
But... aren't most hardware OS matrixes basically only pushing the digital signal to the highest SRC possible before going to the output?
As of this moment... I am completely lost. I'm not hitting the dead horse as to "why" there is latency... Christian Budde once told me in a very old mail, that you can only have 2 out of 3 without cut-ins: Low Latency, High Quality Audio, low CPU usage. So that part is clear.
But I am confused with the talk about Bitrate Oversampling...
VOS + TDL + VLADG = SlickEQ
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- KVRAF
- 14660 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
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- KVRAF
- 23565 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
Compyfox wrote: But I am confused with the talk about Bitrate Oversampling...
I have a hunch this might be because you're not a coder...
(so why insist on going there?
)"Preamps have literally one job: when you turn up the gain, it gets louder." Jamcat, talking about presmp-emulation plugins.
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- KVRAF
- 14660 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Understanding a plugin in order to fully use it's potential.
Less marketing, more technical documentation.
I'm an audio engineer, I'm curious at heart.
Less marketing, more technical documentation.
I'm an audio engineer, I'm curious at heart.
Last edited by Compyfox on Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 1731 posts since 28 Dec, 2007
kvr is nuts sometimes. inflated hobbyists taking on developers trying to tell them what to do and stating unsolicited opinions about technologies they dont understand. its a sort of nerd attack arrogance.
Presets for u-he Diva -> http://swanaudio.co.uk/
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- KVRAF
- 14660 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Directed at anyone specific?
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- KVRAF
- 1731 posts since 28 Dec, 2007
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- KVRAF
- 14660 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Glad that I don't wear any, and I don't have oversized feet.
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- KVRian
- 1169 posts since 24 Feb, 2012
Really, I'm perfectly in line with Compyfox's philosophy.
But I appreciate your comment analoguesamples909, all this can really be "difficult" for a developer. Thankfully, we (the devs) all have "real" jobs and don't need to manipulate for a living! lol
I sometimes wish I could have such in depth discussions with the developers of the products I use! After all, the natural scepticism ppl develop against massive marketing promises is very positive.Compyfox wrote:Understanding a plugin in order to fully use it's potential.
Less marketing, more technical documentation.
I'm an audio engineer, I'm curious at heart.
But I appreciate your comment analoguesamples909, all this can really be "difficult" for a developer. Thankfully, we (the devs) all have "real" jobs and don't need to manipulate for a living! lol
Fabien from Tokyo Dawn Records
Check out my audio processors over at the Tokyo Dawn Labs!
Check out my audio processors over at the Tokyo Dawn Labs!
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- KVRAF
- 3841 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Underworld
I've got really big feet. I could snowboard without the board! 
My wife sometimes calls me "bigfoot".
On the serious note, I find this discussion very informative. For as long as it is civil, of course.
Thank you for those graphs Fabien! ♥ the graphs and frequency curves. It kinda answers my question why there's no variable Q or a least 2 settings "wide" and "narrow", also... if I use the British model for cutting, it is narrow enough for precise cuts, yet still wide enough. I shall save these graphs... OTOH they will be in the manual, I suppose. 
Fabien, I think the natural scepticism against the marketing promises is sadly not high enough... nor people recognising lies in the public media when they hear them. It is actually the other way round - people "swallow" whatever the lies and marketing ploys they hear so easily these days, almost as if they've been programmed to act like that. "Be a good consumer". No scheisse...
Cheers!
My wife sometimes calls me "bigfoot". On the serious note, I find this discussion very informative. For as long as it is civil, of course.
Thank you for those graphs Fabien! ♥ the graphs and frequency curves. It kinda answers my question why there's no variable Q or a least 2 settings "wide" and "narrow", also... if I use the British model for cutting, it is narrow enough for precise cuts, yet still wide enough. I shall save these graphs... OTOH they will be in the manual, I suppose. Fabien, I think the natural scepticism against the marketing promises is sadly not high enough... nor people recognising lies in the public media when they hear them. It is actually the other way round - people "swallow" whatever the lies and marketing ploys they hear so easily these days, almost as if they've been programmed to act like that. "Be a good consumer". No scheisse...
Cheers!
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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- KVRAF
- 10398 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
I agree that that skepticism against marketing is a healthy thing and not enough people practice this.. but things are perhaps a bit more complex than that though.. I agree that there is a lot of marketing going on in the audio industry but part of the problem lies in the massive explosion of consumer grade audio equipment which has resulted in tons of people new to the audio engineering field, with little experience and bad equipment which means that a majority are missing some subtleties.
Thus if a company tries to describe a plugin like Slate VCC or Sonimus Satson, it is very easy to dismiss it all as hype. Especially if one can not hear the effect.
I can kind of relate as I am now working with some people who deal with film and photography and as a complete newbie in this area I too have trouble seeing what these experienced people see. It's all very new to me so I kind of have to trust them when they show me comparison photos of before/after a subtle process. It's especially difficult when something is said to "look more professional" than something else when I don't fully understand the differences. Thus, again, it becomes a kind of hype that I, as a layman, do not see which begs the question; are these kinds of subtleties even relevant/necessary then? Yes. I think they are.
More examples can be found in other fields like science (mathematics for instance.. there seems to be a certain "beauty" that can only be appreciated at a more advanced level, or that's what I'm told; I'm not at an advanced level of mathematics) and literature. A person who never reads fine literature or classic poetry can never learn to appreciate the nuances and subtleties.. at least this is what I'm told and who am I to doubt this? I never read fine literature nor classic poetry!
I'm not sure I'm getting my point across here but what I'm trying to say is; the amount of "hype" and "marketing" is in the eye of the beholder and greatly determined by the experience level and available tools to enjoy the marketed differences. In the end we are dealing with completely subjective things here so the word "better" in any for of marketing when it comes to audio or other sensory inputs should never be taken all that seriously.
Finally, there are also the physical restrictions of hearing. Thus if a very subtle nuance reaches ridiculously low levels (yet to be determined! Depending on the process, it seems to be possible to hear subtle changes almost down to the noise floor of 16 bit audio.. ) it can be relatively quickly dismissed as either non-relevant or if it's very aggressive marketing ("much better!", "much more professional!", "ultra analogue!!"
) it can usually be deemed "snake oil".
TL;DR
Marketing and hype is in the eye of the beholder due to the vast experience and equipment differences that the audio community has. One mans "subtle" is another mans "can't hear shit!". One mans "this is harsh!" is another mans "this is punchy and awesome!". Thus, going aggressively anti-establishment / anti-marketing can be equally damaging. Moderation and understanding our limits goes a long way towards improving this situation.
2nd TL;DR
I've had way too much coffee and am rambling!
Cheers!
bManic
Thus if a company tries to describe a plugin like Slate VCC or Sonimus Satson, it is very easy to dismiss it all as hype. Especially if one can not hear the effect.
I can kind of relate as I am now working with some people who deal with film and photography and as a complete newbie in this area I too have trouble seeing what these experienced people see. It's all very new to me so I kind of have to trust them when they show me comparison photos of before/after a subtle process. It's especially difficult when something is said to "look more professional" than something else when I don't fully understand the differences. Thus, again, it becomes a kind of hype that I, as a layman, do not see which begs the question; are these kinds of subtleties even relevant/necessary then? Yes. I think they are.
More examples can be found in other fields like science (mathematics for instance.. there seems to be a certain "beauty" that can only be appreciated at a more advanced level, or that's what I'm told; I'm not at an advanced level of mathematics) and literature. A person who never reads fine literature or classic poetry can never learn to appreciate the nuances and subtleties.. at least this is what I'm told and who am I to doubt this? I never read fine literature nor classic poetry!
I'm not sure I'm getting my point across here but what I'm trying to say is; the amount of "hype" and "marketing" is in the eye of the beholder and greatly determined by the experience level and available tools to enjoy the marketed differences. In the end we are dealing with completely subjective things here so the word "better" in any for of marketing when it comes to audio or other sensory inputs should never be taken all that seriously.
Finally, there are also the physical restrictions of hearing. Thus if a very subtle nuance reaches ridiculously low levels (yet to be determined! Depending on the process, it seems to be possible to hear subtle changes almost down to the noise floor of 16 bit audio.. ) it can be relatively quickly dismissed as either non-relevant or if it's very aggressive marketing ("much better!", "much more professional!", "ultra analogue!!"
) it can usually be deemed "snake oil".TL;DR
Marketing and hype is in the eye of the beholder due to the vast experience and equipment differences that the audio community has. One mans "subtle" is another mans "can't hear shit!". One mans "this is harsh!" is another mans "this is punchy and awesome!". Thus, going aggressively anti-establishment / anti-marketing can be equally damaging. Moderation and understanding our limits goes a long way towards improving this situation.
2nd TL;DR
I've had way too much coffee and am rambling!
Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
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- KVRAF
- 4584 posts since 21 Sep, 2005
I must try to do that more. The TL;DR thing.bmanic wrote:
TL;DR
Marketing and hype is in the eye of the beholder due to the vast experience and equipment differences that the audio community has. One mans "subtle" is another mans "can't hear shit!". One mans "this is harsh!" is another mans "this is punchy and awesome!". Thus, going aggressively anti-establishment / anti-marketing can be equally damaging. Moderation and understanding our limits goes a long way towards improving this situation.
2nd TL;DR
I've had way too much coffee and am rambling!
Cheers!
bManic
One thing that always troubled me though, and I don't know if you can help me with this bmanic (if anyone can you can), but why a semi-colon and not a normal colon? It seems to sum up the whole arbritaryiness of the internet.
I shouldn't have asked. How rude of me..
Still, you got to wonder...
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- KVRAF
- 4584 posts since 21 Sep, 2005
jens wrote:Compyfox wrote: But I am confused with the talk about Bitrate Oversampling...
I have a hunch this might be because you're not a coder...
(so why insist on going there?
Er. What do you know about coding that gives you any kind of authority to say this?
I just read a four page spread on Java 8 and its new concurrency model via the new lambda shit. What gives you such big pants?
eh?
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- KVRAF
- 4584 posts since 21 Sep, 2005
edit.
burp.
but if KVR would f**king sort out the fact that I need to post most things twice, so it will render, then I would stop hitting the button twice, like a monkey.
Just saying.
burp.
but if KVR would f**king sort out the fact that I need to post most things twice, so it will render, then I would stop hitting the button twice, like a monkey.
Just saying.
Last edited by codec_spurt on Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Beware the Quoth
- 33256 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
http://www.colonsemicolon.com/codec_spurt wrote:One thing that always troubled me though, and I don't know if you can help me with this bmanic (if anyone can you can), but why a semi-colon and not a normal colon?
my other modular synth is a bugbrand
