Sonimus Britson - out now!
-
- KVRist
- 257 posts since 28 Nov, 2012
Can anyone shed some light on the Gain:Saturation inversion?
By that, I mean, like most plugins, I'm sure this one has less saturation the less gain you apply, and more the more gain you apply.
Let's say you take a track that was already recorded pretty hot, then throw Britson on it. So you use the trim to level it down to 0VU, but because it was already 'hot'(loud), you have to use negative gain to get it into the correct spot.. So wouldn't that just be applying less saturation to the signal, something that shouldn't necessarily make sense in the context?
By that, I mean, like most plugins, I'm sure this one has less saturation the less gain you apply, and more the more gain you apply.
Let's say you take a track that was already recorded pretty hot, then throw Britson on it. So you use the trim to level it down to 0VU, but because it was already 'hot'(loud), you have to use negative gain to get it into the correct spot.. So wouldn't that just be applying less saturation to the signal, something that shouldn't necessarily make sense in the context?
Last edited by itneveris on Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- KVRist
- 161 posts since 11 Feb, 2011 from Duluth
Wow - I have been hemming & hawing over the exact same wonderment...in fact I actually tried typing the same inquiry earlier today here on this thread but couldn't get my thoughts to translate to type - so well done 'itneveris'.itneveris wrote:Can anyone shed some light on the Gain:Saturation inversion?
By that, I mean, like most plugins, I'm sure this one has less saturation the less gain you apply, and more the more gain you apply.
Let's say you take a track that was already recorded pretty hot, then throw Britson on it. So you use the trim to level it down to 0VU, but because it was already 'hot'(loud), you have to use negative gain to get it into the correct spot.. So wouldnt that just be applying less saturation to the signal, something that should necessarily make sense in the context?
I bought Britson last night and tried monkeying around with it. I put it on a bass gtr part that was recorded a little hot (not too hot) and wasn't too concerned about the gain staging part of it. I turned up the Britson fader and was rewarded with a delightful augmentation of tonal color despite the VU pinning well into the 'red' (note: the DAW output wasn't clipping). Then after I read the manual I was a little dismayed with the stern instruction to gain stage properly, to dial the fader down so it never exceeds 0.0 d.B.'s.
Today a tackled a mix more thoroughly and did as instructed and set levels/gain staged according to the manual but like 'itneveris', I worried I wasn't getting that 'velvety tonal color' I had going last night before I reigned it in and adjusted the fader down. I kept telling myself "it was still there, just a quieter signal" ..and to not be fooled by volume - ye' ol' trick of the mind that the louder signal is better (not).
Thoughts?
-
- KVRAF
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
I'm not technical enough but I frequently "gain stage" to where the meters "dance" and I feel it makes a better mix. Again, I don't really have a clue with the technical mumbo, just using my ears.
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 7397 posts since 20 Jul, 2004 from Clearwater
Here we have a shootout which includes an AlexB Nebula console vs Sonimus' Britson & Satson Consoles.
Lets see who can figure out which is which in a blind test.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-1.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-2.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-3.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-4.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-5.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-6.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-7.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-8.mp3
Visit the original post for more info and wav files here:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-sho ... atson.html
Lets see who can figure out which is which in a blind test.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-1.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-2.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-3.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-4.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-5.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-6.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-7.mp3
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... tson-8.mp3
Visit the original post for more info and wav files here:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-sho ... atson.html
Last edited by djanthonyw on Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
You are currently reading my signature.
-
- KVRist
- 257 posts since 28 Nov, 2012
Haha thanks.sadkin wrote:Wow - I have been hemming & hawing over the exact same wonderment...in fact I actually tried typing the same inquiry earlier today here on this thread but couldn't get my thoughts to translate to type - so well done 'itneveris'.itneveris wrote:Can anyone shed some light on the Gain:Saturation inversion?
By that, I mean, like most plugins, I'm sure this one has less saturation the less gain you apply, and more the more gain you apply.
Let's say you take a track that was already recorded pretty hot, then throw Britson on it. So you use the trim to level it down to 0VU, but because it was already 'hot'(loud), you have to use negative gain to get it into the correct spot.. So wouldnt that just be applying less saturation to the signal, something that should necessarily make sense in the context?
I bought Britson last night and tried monkeying around with it. I put it on a bass gtr part that was recorded a little hot (not too hot) and wasn't too concerned about the gain staging part of it. I turned up the Britson fader and was rewarded with a delightful augmentation of tonal color despite the VU pinning well into the 'red' (note: the DAW output wasn't clipping). Then after I read the manual I was a little dismayed with the stern instruction to gain stage properly, to dial the fader down so it never exceeds 0.0 d.B.'s.
Today a tackled a mix more thoroughly and did as instructed and set levels/gain staged according to the manual but like 'itneveris', I worried I wasn't getting that 'velvety tonal color' I had going last night before I reigned it in and adjusted the fader down. I kept telling myself "it was still there, just a quieter signal" ..and to not be fooled by volume - ye' ol' trick of the mind that the louder signal is better (not).
Thoughts?
Now that I'm thinking of it, maybe this is what he was talking about in the manual, keeping in mind the clear distinction between gain staging and 'creative' uses of it, which is why we also get an 'off' switch, for cleaner staging either before, or after driving it(but wouldn't this be what the gain compensation was for?)... I just have no idea now.
-
- KVRian
- 663 posts since 22 Sep, 2007 from Caracas, Venezuela
@itneveris:
If it's hot there's no way to trim down that saturation. The gain fader in Britson just controls what goes "in", the more gain it gets the more saturation you'll get "from the plug-in". The output compensation is like a gain make-up, it just reduces the output by the same amount of dBs that you're applying with the gain fader.
No, the Crosstalk is only present in a Buss, between left and right. Britson instances do not "talk" to each other.
If it's hot there's no way to trim down that saturation. The gain fader in Britson just controls what goes "in", the more gain it gets the more saturation you'll get "from the plug-in". The output compensation is like a gain make-up, it just reduces the output by the same amount of dBs that you're applying with the gain fader.
No, the Crosstalk is only present in a Buss, between left and right. Britson instances do not "talk" to each other.
-
- KVRian
- 663 posts since 22 Sep, 2007 from Caracas, Venezuela
Care to elaborate then?itneveris wrote:I get what you mean, but I'm not sure if you know what I mean, or are addressing it correctly.
- KVRian
- 822 posts since 8 May, 2006
I am not sure if I have gain staging completely right but I send my signals into satson around -18dBfs. Then I use the gain knob to drive the signal. The 0VU is a reference level for the meter with a sine wave. (-20dBs,-18dBs & -14dBs) Kick and bass will be read higher than snare while hi-hat will hardly move the meter. Turn on output compensation so while driving the signal it does not get so loud. Turn on fat if you want more apparent saturation and super gain for even more. Please correct me if I am doing this wrong.
-
- KVRist
- 161 posts since 11 Feb, 2011 from Duluth
okay, this is what itneveris and I were both speculating. So if it is true: that the more gain Britson gets "in" (from adjusting the fader) the more saturation you'll get "from the plug-in", then it seems kinda counter intuitive to turn down the fader if the tone one achieves is flattering even in instances when the meter bounces into the 'red' - the tone achieved presumably as a result of the aforementioned 'saturation'.Mercado_Negro wrote:@itneveris:
If it's hot there's no way to trim down that saturation. The gain fader in Britson just controls what goes "in", the more gain it gets the more saturation you'll get "from the plug-in". The output compensation is like a gain make-up, it just reduces the output by the same amount of dBs that you're applying with the gain fader.
.
Again, the manual instructs us to turn the Britson faders down so that the signals loudest instances just 'kiss' the 0.0 d.B., never crossing into the red.
I am all for proper gain staging and setting up a mix 'right' but I am curious about that 'tone' I heard the other night when I just slapped Britson on a bass gtr part and started turning up the fader (yum). That the result of said action still didn't clip the output of that channel with the DAW fader set to unity tempts myself, and apparently itneveris, to question the developers instruction to turn down the gain/fader so the signal never goes into the 'red'.
I have to suppose that following the manual promotes the theory/practice that subsequent plug-ins (like: comps & eq's) coded & designed with the overall behavior & calibration of hardware units (non-emulations included) anticipate specific range of level at the input stage. I am understanding that by following Sonimus' instruction to reduce the gain so it never goes 'into the red' steers us to these optimum levels so that the plug-in compressor and everything afterwards in the chain behaves & sounds its 'best', by design. This, in turn, inherently helps the mixer create a mix that 'breathes' more (a term I keep reading used to describe the positive & cumulative outcome of a mix after initial & proper gain staging has been exercised).
Buuuuut, yaaaaaaa, I still liked that tone from the other night;-)
- KVRAF
- 4433 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell
i have a silly question. suppose i use satson (which is reportedly inspired by SSL). let's say i also have an SSL channel from T-Racks (British Channel). would said channel include console saturation similar to satson?
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.
-
- KVRian
- 663 posts since 22 Sep, 2007 from Caracas, Venezuela
@Lee702:
That seems right to me. Just pay attention to the sound while you're adding gain when output compensation is on. Internally you may be clipping the plug-in (very common if you try to get close to 0dBVU with a Hi-Hat or similar).
@sadkin:
If you liked the sound then it's OK, don't think too much into it. Proper gain staging is one of the most important things when mixing, yes but sometimes it sounds better when you "break" these rules. If you hear a good tone just level it down to 0dB and then back to where it was and compare. Maybe it was good when you first heard it but "maybe" it'll be better if you tame or crank it even more, just try it.
I always say, "it sounds good until you hear something better".
@Burillo:
Probably but only the T-RackS manual will tell. I wouldn't care too much about it, to be honest. If it sounds good just leave it as is and move on.
That seems right to me. Just pay attention to the sound while you're adding gain when output compensation is on. Internally you may be clipping the plug-in (very common if you try to get close to 0dBVU with a Hi-Hat or similar).
@sadkin:
If you liked the sound then it's OK, don't think too much into it. Proper gain staging is one of the most important things when mixing, yes but sometimes it sounds better when you "break" these rules. If you hear a good tone just level it down to 0dB and then back to where it was and compare. Maybe it was good when you first heard it but "maybe" it'll be better if you tame or crank it even more, just try it.
I always say, "it sounds good until you hear something better".
@Burillo:
Probably but only the T-RackS manual will tell. I wouldn't care too much about it, to be honest. If it sounds good just leave it as is and move on.
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 7397 posts since 20 Jul, 2004 from Clearwater
I don't think so. They might have some saturation, but they primarily focus on curves, while a console emulation might have some curves, but primarily focuses on saturation and other subtleties.Burillo wrote:i have a silly question. suppose i use satson (which is reportedly inspired by SSL). let's say i also have an SSL channel from T-Racks (British Channel). would said channel include console saturation similar to satson?
You are currently reading my signature.