Did KVR Scare the Reaper Peeps Away?

[hibidy]

Someone needs to mention the "go make music" aspect

Stark raving insanity, but it could just work ...

Well, I just wanted to be first of what was inevitable.

We also might have forgot "it's not the tools, it's the user"

(strokes beard.........)

[chokehold]

Reaper is stuck at being 90% of the Cubase experience at 1/10th the price, and now they seem to be making a half-hearted attempt to be a generic Ableton as well, but they're way too late to that party...

What you don't seem to get is that Reaper isn't trying to be Cubase or Live. At all.
It's a completely independent product that has worked in completley different ways than its competitors from day #1 on. The so-called "tool-less interface" being one of its major advantages over all the others - if one likes they way it works.

Tell me:

Is Linux 90% of the Windows experience because it lacks support for some Win-oriented hardware, lacks support for most Windows-based games and applications, and because you have to know how to use that black window with letters in it to change any advanced things?

Or is maybe Windows 90% of the Linux experience, because it does have a lot of graphical tools but hardly any useful console support anymore? Because it's (with Win8) centered too much on looks and features for mobile devices rather than desktops? Because it grows slow, it's full of faults, there are tons of viruses and bluescreens and 350x the price tag and and and?

Which one is 100% of the experience? Which is the cheap rip-off?

Same with Reaper and Cubase or Live. Reaper is Reaper, not a Cubase or Live rip-off. Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools, Samplitude - they can all be counted as one and the same, with minor differences in workflow or visualisation.

Reaper is different and always has been.
It's not about better or worse, it's about being different and offering something new.

And in contrast to most of the aforementioned major players, Reaper has yet to see an update that would break any working features. The Reaper team would rather delay the integration of a feature for as much time as it takes to make it work right, than incorporate 1/2 working or faulty code into their program; as the recently integrated Stretch Markers confirm.

Seems to me that most Reaper critics have just become bitter about Reaper because it hasn't helped them become better musicians or sound engineers, and therefore have to rant on about the evil scapegoat that's waaaay too complicated to grasp and to bother looking into it any further.

Fact is: even the biggest, most expensive Studio One version makes you find the option for "return cursor to start point on stop" which usually is an out-of-the-box experience in most other sequencers.

Speaking of Studio One, mind you - a 350€ product... have they fixed the bug yet that completely crashes v2.5 on OSX when your drag a plugin onto that track overview thing?
Can one copy plugins from one mixer insert slot to another yet by dragging them?
Can it do drag-n-drop routing from one channel to another yet?
Can one rempve a plugin from an insert slot by clicking on it with a keyboard modifier yet?
Can it auto-select the type of track yet, instead of making you choose from far too many possibilities?

Sheesh, I could never work with Studio One's restrictive amateur-oriented workflow.

The way I see it, Reaper is for the nerds like myself, the console/terminal guys, the ones that can control their OS entirely with only a keyboard. We want a sleek and stable host, and we're not afraid of keyboard shortcuts, searchable options dialogs and tabs.

Studio One, Cubase, etc. all seem to be made for the "can't be bothered" type of user, the sort that needs to see something they can click on - otherwise it doesn't exist. If Someone doesn't tell them how it works, it's too much trouble to find it out for themselves. They buy based on a big price, because if it's the most expensive that MUST mean it's the best there is, plus it brings a s*itload of instruments and 3 FX plugins with it - what other host could beat that. Plus, all the pros use that expensive thing so it MUST be the best there is.
The sort of person I wouldn't want to spend my spare time with.

[koolkeys]

Reaper is stuck at being 90% of the Cubase experience at 1/10th the price, and now they seem to be making a half-hearted attempt to be a generic Ableton as well, but they're way too late to that party...

What you don't seem to get is that Reaper isn't trying to be Cubase or Live. At all.
It's a completely independent product that has worked in completley different ways than its competitors from day #1 on. The so-called "tool-less interface" being one of its major advantages over all the others - if one likes they way it works.

Tell me:

Is Linux 90% of the Windows experience because it lacks support for some Win-oriented hardware, lacks support for most Windows-based games and applications, and because you have to know how to use that black window with letters in it to change any advanced things?

Or is maybe Windows 90% of the Linux experience, because it does have a lot of graphical tools but hardly any useful console support anymore? Because it's (with Win8) centered too much on looks and features for mobile devices rather than desktops? Because it grows slow, it's full of faults, there are tons of viruses and bluescreens and 350x the price tag and and and?

Which one is 100% of the experience? Which is the cheap rip-off?

Same with Reaper and Cubase or Live. Reaper is Reaper, not a Cubase or Live rip-off. Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools, Samplitude - they can all be counted as one and the same, with minor differences in workflow or visualisation.

Reaper is different and always has been.
It's not about better or worse, it's about being different and offering something new.

And in contrast to most of the aforementioned major players, Reaper has yet to see an update that would break any working features. The Reaper team would rather delay the integration of a feature for as much time as it takes to make it work right, than incorporate 1/2 working or faulty code into their program; as the recently integrated Stretch Markers confirm.

Seems to me that most Reaper critics have just become bitter about Reaper because it hasn't helped them become better musicians or sound engineers, and therefore have to rant on about the evil scapegoat that's waaaay too complicated to grasp and to bother looking into it any further.

Fact is: even the biggest, most expensive Studio One version makes you find the option for "return cursor to start point on stop" which usually is an out-of-the-box experience in most other sequencers.

Speaking of Studio One, mind you - a 350€ product... have they fixed the bug yet that completely crashes v2.5 on OSX when your drag a plugin onto that track overview thing?
Can one copy plugins from one mixer insert slot to another yet by dragging them?
Can it do drag-n-drop routing from one channel to another yet?
Can one rempve a plugin from an insert slot by clicking on it with a keyboard modifier yet?
Can it auto-select the type of track yet, instead of making you choose from far too many possibilities?

Sheesh, I could never work with Studio One's restrictive amateur-oriented workflow.

The way I see it, Reaper is for the nerds like myself, the console/terminal guys, the ones that can control their OS entirely with only a keyboard. We want a sleek and stable host, and we're not afraid of keyboard shortcuts, searchable options dialogs and tabs.

Studio One, Cubase, etc. all seem to be made for the "can't be bothered" type of user, the sort that needs to see something they can click on - otherwise it doesn't exist. If Someone doesn't tell them how it works, it's too much trouble to find it out for themselves. They buy based on a big price, because if it's the most expensive that MUST mean it's the best there is, plus it brings a s*itload of instruments and 3 FX plugins with it - what other host could beat that. Plus, all the pros use that expensive thing so it MUST be the best there is.
The sort of person I wouldn't want to spend my spare time with.

Seems like somebody is taking this just a little too seriously and needs to lay off the kool-aid just a tad. Most of the things you say people claim about Reaper, they are not claiming. And the reasons why you say people choose other hosts are quite unfounded as well. Exaggerate much?

But the idea that Reaper has always been 100% it's own is false. There are plenty of features that are copied from other hosts. It's users are always asking for it to do things other hosts do in the way they do them. So what? Happens with every host. There is rarely anything unique put into hosts these days. But from the beginning, Reaper users have claimed that by "version x", it will be better than host x or y in every way, or it will be the Pro Tools killer, or whatever. It was built on a rip-off interface from Vegas/Acid, took some of it's own directions, added features popular in other hosts, and it became a legitimate option in the host market. It's not 100% it's own in terms of features, workflow or anything else, and it doesn't need/have to be.

Things in Reaper, like the "tool-less" interface, the reliance on keyboard shortcuts, tabs..........nothing new. It works how it works and it really doesn't matter if it came from another host or not.

Not sure why some people want to convince themselves that Reaper can do everything, do everything better, and is unique in every way. It's JUST ANOTHER HOST. Just another option. It has things that other hosts don't, and it's missing things other hosts have. It's a GREAT host, and one of my favorites. And the fact that I don't think it's workflow is near as good as Studio One doesn't mean I don't want to use it, or that it's not good. It's just another host with a certain set of options that will suit some people, and won't suit others.

Does anything else TRULY matter? No problem with discussion, but let's not get unrealistic here, eh?

Brent

[glokraw]

The only real fix at this point would be to make Reaper5 a stripped down, non-backwards-compatible fork of Reaper4 minus all the legacy cruft and getting rid of all but the most sensible set of options

If Reaper team doesn't label their current version as broken, they could just
create a new product in paralell, optimized for core functions,
and streamline the old waddling giant 6 megabyte version, at leisure.
The new one could even include, or just be, a vst version,
like the energyXT system, so any problematic new/old projects could
be loaded into the version they were created in, and hosted in the
main the DAW, with a choice of which one is main.

[woggle]

no quotes here

[EvilDragon]

I just found out today that Reaper can handle multiple Docker windows, so now I can have my FX browser always open and drag all the little darlings right onto the Mixer... gad, how I love that program. And as you can see, I also use colors for groups, really helps.

Yep! It can be really useful, like so:

[woggle]

no quotes here either

[samsam]

n/m, this thread delivers

[jeffh]

@koolkeys: Thanks for "handling that", LOL, couldn't have said it better myself...

EDIT: but one thing worth mentioning: For all of the "sour grapes because Reaper didn't help you become famous", and "not amateur oriented" stuff he talks about, is there a single big name artist or studio using Reaper yet? Seems like the answer is still "no", but I could've missed it. Obviously there are big names using Cubase and Ableton, I'd value their confidence in Reaper far more than anonymous fanboys on the internet shouting from the rooftops that it's "just as good" or "better"...

If Reaper team doesn't label their current version as broken, they could just
create a new product in paralell, optimized for core functions,
and streamline the old waddling giant 6 megabyte version, at leisure.
The new one could even include, or just be, a vst version,
like the energyXT system, so any problematic new/old projects could
be loaded into the version they were created in, and hosted in the
main the DAW, with a choice of which one is main.

You might have noticed that I do it that way

[digidennis]

@EvilDragon
Cool layout, theme you have. Care to share how and what?

[EvilDragon]

It's the old version of RADO theme, I'm not sure if it's still available. I did a few of my own tweaks to it, I don't remember which (it was a long time ago - but I know I have a few custom icons there). Doing all the dockers is not a big problem, it's a drag&drop affair.


Can't wait to have 2x24" 1920x1200 setup, so I can have mixer on the second monitor.

[LawrenceF]

Yep! It can be really useful, like so:

Edwardo!!! The multidocking is pretty cool where things fit nicely. +1

Le' Dragon is (imo) the the best case Reaper user. He's loyal, he fiddles and customizes with great result, he gets his work done with it, and he also is a fair and concise critic of it's shortcomings and never implies that it's the savior of industry.

If I'm the Reaper devs I really, really like users like ED (and Airon) because they keep me honest. ED will go "but dude, you can swing this over there and use this action and get this thing done." Then 5 minutes later he'll go.. "WTF is this thing like this for!?!?! You guys need to change this NOW!!!" Love ED.

If he had tits I'd date him.

Anyway, demoing DP8 on Win. Not overly impressed functionally yet, but the UI is great.

[EvilDragon]

If I had tits I'd date myself!



BTW, I'm demoing Reason 7 right now. Unlimited unlocked demos FTW. I really like those synths in there. I wouldn't do my sequencing in Reason (luckily there's Rewire, but IIRC sadly Reaper cannot be a Rewire master? :sadpanda:) since with all the mouse modifier modifications in Reaper I can get the work in MIDI editor done a whole lot faster than in Reason.

ReGroove is effin' awesome, though. Really effin' awesome. Works both on audio and MIDI. Not to mention in R7 it automatically slices audio as you record it. It is totally sexy.

[koolkeys]

Yep! It can be really useful, like so:

I love the old Rado theme. Of course, it's MUCH better on a larger monitor(which I have on my desktop). But still a great theme.

The docking in Reaper is a love/hate kind of thing for me. I love having it there, and I use it, but there is something strange about it's behavior that makes it slightly clunky. Unfortunately, it's the same problem that some other programs have with the docking, such as Samplitude, so Reaper is not alone(I actually prefer Reaper's docking over Samplitude).

It seems to me that the "best" docking ergonomics are still being figured out. It might be that I'm so used to the Adobe docking which is very well done, but who knows.

Brent

[EvilDragon]

The best docking behavior in any program ever is in Photoshop, bar none. It's just so smooth, predictable and just right.

I know what you mean about docking being "clunky" in Reaper. It's because the blue bars can be misleading, and docking does not really behave in a WYSIWYG way. Tricky, but what the hell. Once you set it up, save the screenset and off you go.