KVR Audio

unguitar · Post by **unguitar** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:48 pm

I am considering alternatives to Audiomulch.
I would like to ask you the following questions as it looks very complex to get these infos by checking the several arguments in depth.
Thank you to those who dedicate some of their time to help.
Before starting with more in depth ones, here is the first and substancial question: is Reaktor able to host Vsts ?

thank you

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:51 pm

Nope, but you want to check out Usine, Plogue Bidule, maybe even Bitwig?

Cheers,

Tom

unguitar · Post by **unguitar** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:11 pm

I am sorry to know !
I checked Usine and Bidule many years ago and went for Audiomulch.
At that time it was the best move because AM architecture and user interface is what allows me to manage my routings at best.
But now AM's lack of 64 bit and multicore support are making it limited compared to other platforms.
It still is a unique application and I love it with no reserve but I don't know how much it loves me to make me think I am investing my time in the right direction.

thetechnobear · Post by **thetechnobear** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:33 pm

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:02 pm

unguitar wrote: I checked Usine and Bidule many years ago and went for Audiomulch.

Perhaps try checking them again...

SODDI · Post by **SODDI** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:12 pm

You can do that - but the forward planning on the Reaktor signal paths is going to be nuts. Everything you want to do you will need to do in advance, or at least prep for in advance, which could make you feel that you are in a very rigid framework.

But I don't want to discourage you, because I think you can do it and I think it is a worthwhile project. I love both Reaktor and AudioMulch (even though I am not using it currently) - both are in my top 5 computer music programs.

Maybe if you started out planning your Reaktor performance ensemble BACKWARDS - set up the mixers and input/output, both MIDI and audio, the beginning and end stages for your performance - set that up for a template ensemble, then add the instruments and effects you will want and save each layout as individual performance ensembles.

Then make each one bulletproof.

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:23 pm

IMO nothing is like Audiomulch. Bidule has the ease of routing but lacks any form of sensible preset management, Usine is nice and flexible, but also closer to reaktor in the amount of work it takes to get a moderately complex setup working. Audiomulch is much, much quicker and straightforward and certainly deals with 'snapshots' much more intuitively. They were a nightmare in Usine when I tried it a few months back.

Also, nothing else I know has preset morphing for example, nothing I've tried has that drag-and-drop simplicity to set up while still offering sophisticated snapshop management and many of Audiomulch's contraptions are quite unique (the looper, bubble blower). Audiomulch just gets it all right as far as usability goes, the lack of 64bit and multicore is a tragedy.

Your best bet IMO is Cantabile, but it follows entirely different design concept.

Also, FWIW, I did some performance testing half a year ago or so and to my surprise Audiomulch actually performed slightly better than Ableton Live did, multicore or not. So unless you're actually running into performance issues that you're not seeing in other hosts, you may want to stick with the mulch for a bit. 64bit may be out sooner than we'd expect and until then it still works very well.

dformd · Post by **dformd** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:03 pm

Just the other day I was thinking about AudioMulch and how it has SO MUCH going for it, but how it also seems it is sort of ... erm ... dying a slow death.
It really would be a HUGE tragedy to see Ross (the developer) pretty much let go of any plans for substantial future developments.
I recall him mentioning in a forum post that he would keep it going; at least for personal use, but it saddens me that many people may dismiss it (perhaps based on it's lack of 64 bit support) and not discover how groundbreaking it is; especially with regards to the Metasurface (snapshot morphing) feature.

That said, my GUESS is that Ross made two decisions that have so far been highly detrimental:
1) He more than doubled the price of AudioMulch when version 2.0 was released
2) He never created a way to generate MIDI note data WITH AudioMulch (alone)

I know he had his reason(s)/philosophy for these decisions,
but I STRONGLY suspect they've killed more interest than they've created.

NEVERTHELESS, I don't think it's too late to turn things around, and HECK, maybe he's planning to try to. He was so silent about the Metasurface, and then: BAM! - here's this GROUNDBREAKING thing - have fun!

HOWEVER, I'd really LOVE to see a bunch of AudioMulch users (myself included; I've made a few already) start making YouTube demos that show off how INCREDIBLY powerful AudioMulch ALREADY is; using it in really interesting, creative ways. I know there are already some YouTube demo videos, but it would be cool to see a range of users get behind their software; kinda OWN it, sorta "lift it up"; show it off; for the sake of saying "lets keep this ingenious software in development"! Might garner some new interest and help inspire Ross. I'm a little worried something needs to change/happen soon.

dformd · Post by **dformd** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:15 pm

Hey unguitar; just realized I took your thread a bit off topic; apologies.

I also recommend giving Bidule another test.
I've actually really embraced it's preset system; grown to love it; I find it highly flexible.
ALSO, the plugin version of Bidule is wonderful for use in AudioMulch; works perfectly; all Bidule parameters can be automated and work smoothly with the Metasurface; preset changes too!

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:42 pm

dformd wrote:Just the other day I was thinking about AudioMulch and how it has SO MUCH going for it, but how it also seems it is sort of ... erm ... dying a slow death.
It really would be a HUGE tragedy to see Ross (the developer) pretty much let go of any plans for substantial future developments.
I recall him mentioning in a forum post that he would keep it going; at least for personal use, but it saddens me that many people may dismiss it (perhaps based on it's lack of 64 bit support) and not discover how groundbreaking it is; especially with regards to the Metasurface (snapshot morphing) feature.

That said, my GUESS is that Ross made two decisions that have so far been highly detrimental:
1) He more than doubled the price of AudioMulch when version 2.0 was released
2) He never created a way to generate MIDI note data WITH AudioMulch (alone)

I used AudioMulch < 1.0 when it was free to download. I found it fun, especially when it was very simple and didn't have the timeline feature or VST hosting. I made a few simple acid tracks with it. At some point, I don't remember the release numbers, it became very flakey, and then it ceased to be beta/free-ware. I don't remember all of the details but I remember feeling that it was too expensive, even initially.

Based on this thread, I went to check it out again. My first thought, sticker shock, but after that, I thought that I'd give it a chance and tried to see what was unique about it. I found it challenging to identify standout features. In fact, I was going to ask in this thread if people had videos of how they use it?

In any case, however, I'm not feeling it over Max. It's higher level, yes, but for how I wanted to use it, which is to build usable live environments, I feel that Max does a better job. I like Reaktor for building certain kinds of machines, and you can integrate those cleanly into Max. Once that work is done, Max is very immediate as well, but also extremely powerful. I never got the feeling that AudioMulch was powerful in the same way.

So, if you're going to create videos, you should show off the features that make AudioMulch a standout for certain applications.

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:23 pm

Really? I mean max is basically a programming environment. I don't see how the two compare at all.

As for what makes Audiomulch unique, I have yet to find anything that quite so easily stores a snapshot of your current scene settings, but only what you want to save, and then lets you play with that and morph and modulate the presets like your whole scene is now one big instrument. Or midi map the snapshots with a click or two and you're switching presets with your external controller or midi messages or whatever. Easy as pie. Is there anything else that offers that? (I'm serious, is there?)

I mean, you may or may not have use for that feature, but a lot of what can be done there takes a boatload of m4L devices to even approximate in Live and even then it's typically so flaky you don't want to go near performing with that. At least that's my experience trying to get what Audiomulch offers elsewhere. It's been extremely frustrating.

Bronto Scorpio · Post by **Bronto Scorpio** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:34 pm

Maybe Minihost Modular could be worth a look?

It's still in beta afaik, but it looks very promising and it will be completely free iirc

I don't know if it has the features you are looking for though.

Just a suggestion.

Cheers
Dennis

unguitar · Post by **unguitar** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:39 pm

In my point of view, beside many excellent and unique effects ( called contraptions) and the metasurface, Audiomulch is offering a very intuitive and fluid working space, allowing very complex routings.

I think it would be a pity if it wouldn't be updated and brought to nowadays standards to benefit from actual processing power ( muilticore and 64 bit).

I will be testing Bidule once again and Minihost ( didn't know about its existence).
I strongly hope that Ross will get some energy injection from this discussion to develop Audiomulch further.

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:21 am

wasi wrote:Really? I mean max is basically a programming environment. I don't see how the two compare at all.

Because AudioMulch is a live patching environment that doesn't allow you to program to any degree of depth and Max/Reaktor are live patching environments that do.

You can't use Max or Reaktor out of the box like you can use audiomulch, but after some work setting up what you want to use, you can, at least to the extent that you can patch machines to each other and to effects without stopping audio. I prefer Reaktor for much of this because the library is better, but, Max loads plugins, Reaktor doesn't.

What I remember about AudioMulch was that it was a fun tool to patch different audio generators and effects together in real time, but, if you didn't like the generators or effects there wasn't much that you could do about it. It felt like a simplified Max or Reaktor. I don't like "patching" in real time, I like setting up live machines and choosing from them. At the time, most of the generators were toys and I was able to get much better results from my nord modular. This was especially true once the 44 module limit was removed. I used the nord for live machines until I stopped playing live at all.

You should post demos of the morphing because it doesn't sound all that interesting to me. It strikes me as one of those ideas that sound cool, but in practice is underwhelming. I solved "morphing" between patches by using a DJ mixer. Yes, I get it, that's a trivial "morph", but for my live playing it covered what I needed. I use the idea of "morphing" a lot within various patches by using the same controllers mapped to different controls in various ways such that some are brought up as others are brought down, etc, but, I find this to be more useful as a specific idea than as a general one. I used this idea quite a bit with live guitar and a digitech foot controller.

As for what makes Audiomulch unique, I have yet to find anything that quite so easily stores a snapshot of your current scene settings, but only what you want to save, and then lets you play with that and morph and modulate the presets like your whole scene is now one big instrument. Or midi map the snapshots with a click or two and you're switching presets with your external controller or midi messages or whatever. Easy as pie. Is there anything else that offers that? (I'm serious, is there?)

I don't know, but for me, I never found those aspects intriguing. That's why, if you're using them in interesting ways, you should post videos, maybe I'm missing something? I thought audiomulch was fun when there was nothing else quite like it that was easily available and accessible. It made much more sense to me at the time than csound did, there just wasn't enough of a leap from free to costs money for me to jump with them.

ravasb · Post by **ravasb** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:40 am

Unguitar, what situations are you thinking of, live or studio? The newest version of Usine is Hollyhock, which I have found to bed very powerful and pretty intuitive. It allows the modulation of every parameter of VSTs, too. It also supports Leapmotion, which makes it a lot of fun.

Leaving Audiomulch for live realtime processing. Is Reaktor the alternative ? A few questions